Re: [registrars] RE: Acceptable Delivery Method (Fourth Draft of GAINING registrar form for transfers)

[Larry Erlich <erlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Thomas Keller wrote:
> 
> Larry I understand you reason, but how do you want to proof
> the legitimacy of a transfer if you don't have anything
> on file?

Hi Tom,

(Also see Another issue:
"Network Solutions Free Transfer" below).

I'm not sure how it would work in your country but
from past experience it would be up to the
"trier of fact" in each case to determine if it
was reasonable that a transaction happened on
verbal approval. Past transactions with the same
customer would be considered. I have been involved in thousands
of transactions (in other businesses dating back many 
years) where things were done on a "handshake". It
is not uncommon. I'm sure many registrars 
take renewal orders over the phone with the customer supplying
credit card information. In this case there is nothing to prevent
the customer from denying the transaction took place. Of course
even with a written order the customer can say that
it was forged etc if they want. Once again it would
be up to the trier of fact to decide who is telling the
truth.  (I have also been involved in multiple transactions
where there are written signed contracts but the cost
of enforcement exceeds the value of the contract and
it is of no use.)

Let me also restate the original point that I made:
It is reasonable for a registrar with an existing
business relationship with a registrant to initiate a
transfer request for that registrant without a
written order. This may not be practical for large
registrars who don't have a personal relationship with
their customers but it may be practical for small registrars.

Another issue:
---------------
Network Solutions is allowing people to transfer
to them at no charge. Free transfer. Free Renewal. No charge.
No limit to the amount of names you can
transfer to them. We just received the email. 
Anybody that wants a copy let me know.

Larry


> To put it differently I guess you (and your customer)
> would loose every dispute, appeal etc. if you are not able to
> show any facts.
> 
> Best,
> 
> tom
> 
> Am 17.10.2003 schrieb Larry Erlich:
> > Legally you are correct. But
> > I think it goes against basic business practice
> > to require a customer who you have an existing
> > relationship with to have to always fax something because it might
> > be needed after the fact for a dispute.
> >
> > The only protection should be for the gaining registrar who may need to feel
> > confident that the customer won't say they didn't
> > approve of the transfer for some reason. If they trust the customer at
> > their word, they should be able to, at their own risk,
> > not require written backup.
> >
> > This is really no different
> > then when you might call your favorite wholesaler
> > and say "Give me 3dz widgets and bill to the
> > credit card you have on file." It happens everyday
> > all over the country.  There is nothing to prevent the
> > "widget-orderer" from denying after the fact that
> > they placed the widget order. It is the word of one
> > person against the another if there is no written
> > backup. The way a large registrar
> > might want to design their system for these things,
> > because of the quality and training of their CS
> > staff, is not going to be the same as a small registrar.
> >
> > Larry Erlich
> >
> > Elana Broitman wrote:
> > >
> > > even in the case of an existing relationship, I think you'll need written proof if there is any dispute later.
> > > as for fax #, you don't need it in the whois - presumably the gaining registrar can get that directly from the registrant, as long as the registrant or adm
> > >
> > > Elana Broitman
> > > Register.com
> > > 575 Eighth Avenue
> > > New York, NY 10018
> > > Phone (212) 798-9215
> > > Fax   (212) 629-9309
> > > ebroitman@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Larry Erlich [mailto:erlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 11:07 AM
> > > To: Bruce Tonkin
> > > Cc: registrars@xxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: [registrars] RE: Acceptable Delivery Method (Fourth Draft
> > > of GAINING registrar form for transfers)
> > >
> > > Bruce Tonkin wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Larry,
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it possible for the gaining registrar approval "letter" to
> > > > > be delivered by a method other than email? If not, does this
> > > > > assume that if the registrant does not have a current email
> > > > > address with the losing registrar, or does not have any email
> > > > > access, they can't transfer registrar?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > We have yet to see the proposed contractual changes etc, but my
> > > > understanding of the policy development outcome was that you could send
> > > > the form to the registrant contact via:
> > > > - email, fax, or post
> > > > (it using the contact information available in the WHOIS).
> > >
> > > Thanks. This seems to indicate that the fax # needs
> > > to be in the whois? Note that the fax is often
> > > not in the whois. Melbourneit.com, DomainRegistry.com, Godaddy.com
> > > don't have their fax # in the whois for example.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The issue with voice is probably one of proof.  Although I guess you
> > > > could record a conversation where a notice was read out and an
> > > > affirmative answer received.
> > >
> > > I think that you need proof of the
> > > affirmative answer either in writing or electronically except
> > > in cases where the registrar has an existing relationship
> > > with a customer (meaning the "registrant" has an existing
> > > relationship - not a reseller).
> > >
> > > >  You may then need some way of verifying
> > > > that the voice in the recording was the registrant.  It is all
> > > > technically possible - although an email is fairly cheap.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Bruce
> >
> > --
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Larry Erlich - DomainRegistry.com, Inc.
> > 215-244-6700 - FAX:215-244-6605 - Reply: erlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> 
> Gruss,
> 
> tom
> 
> (__)
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