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Re: [ga] keeping expired domains by a registrar


I appreciate your comments Paul, but I don't discount Ted's opinion because he makes money at it. I simply stated that those who do obviously will support that position. There is a difference. Are we not supposed to try to help create policy that benefits the largest number of users rather than those who own the most domain names? If so, then my statement stands as is.

People should join the list to make sure their points of view are heard. They should join this list to help, protect their interests. Nothing is wrong with that and it should be a major point in inviting new members to join the list. However, if this list is to revive the GA at any future point, it also has the responsibility of attempting to benefit users of all economic backgrounds, nationalities, etc.

If everyone here ONLY represents their own interests then nothing will happen. Nothing will change. Take ICANN as a perfect example. Their are several special interests influencing the way things are done. None of them seem to be trying to take the average user into account when making their decisions. Should we follow that example in creating the GA or should we do the opposite and create an organization that addresses the needs of the majority of users? We complain about ICANN only representing certain interests, yet it's okay for us to do so here on this list?

Chris McElroy aka NameCritic
http://www.articlecontentprovider.com


----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Stahura" <paul.stahura@xxxxxxxx>
To: "kidsearch" <kidsearch@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Prophet Partners Inc." <Domains@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: [ga] keeping expired domains by a registrar




The solution for the tasting issue that Chris brought up (essentially,
that the "common man" can't get names because they are being tasted by
sophisticated scripters) is, in one word, availability.  Create a new
type of name... make the tasted names AVAILABLE for registration. Then
the common man can register any of them because none of them are
"taken".  I know those last 2 sentences may be confusing to some.

This thread has been fascinating to me.  I agree with Ted.
Why is it that every time there is a controversial issue, people say
"you are making money so your position has no credibility"?

Also regarding Chris' statement "Any policy that provides benefits based
on ones ability to pay more for something than someone else makes that a
flawed policy for the purposes ICANN was created for."
If it's not ability to pay, then it's something else, such as queues, or
a beauty contest, or politicking.  These other methods of distributing
goods/benefits are even more flawed.  Like it or not, squeeze the
balloon in one place and it pops out somewhere else.  Take creds, which
are used to get names in the drop.  ICANN says "equal access to the
registry for each cred" and "cred are relatively cheap to get to make it
easier for anyone to get one and compete". So the number of creds has
increased and will continue to increase/fluctuate near the point where
the payment (TO ICANN I might add) is about equal to the income
generated by auctioning the names that drop (the number of creds will
increase to equilibrium).  Its simple economics.   I doubt it was their
intent, but ICANN probably makes more (in the form of the fees to get
and sustain accreditation) than a so-called drop catchers does.

If ICANN makes some non-money policy/method to essentially distribute
any good/benefit, then THAT thing (such as beauty, first place in a
queue, political connections, demonstrated poverty, place of residence,
whatever) will be bought and sold.


-----Original Message----- From: kidsearch [mailto:kidsearch@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 12:13 PM To: Prophet Partners Inc.; ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: [ga] keeping expired domains by a registrar

Yes, I realize that, but extending that system to the people with the
most
money get all the best domains is still a stretch in my opinion. On your

previous question, a lot of tasters are using scripts to register
domains as
well. I didn't say it would eliminate the problem. However, it would
give a
BETTER chance to average joe who wants a domain name.


----- Original Message ----- From: "Prophet Partners Inc." <Domains@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [ga] keeping expired domains by a registrar



Hi Chris,

We were on the topic of automated vs. manual registrations. What's the
correlation between many people manually registering domains for a
normal
registration period and eliminating domain tasting?

If it wasn't for subsidies from capitalism, how do you think these
small
poor nations would be able to even afford an Internet infrastructure?
You
do
realize that ICANN registries/registrars from poor countries pay lower

fees
that are absorbed by those from developed countries, right?

Sincerely,
Ted
Prophet Partners Inc.
http://www.ProphetPartners.com
http://www.Premium-Domain-Names.com


----- Original Message ----- From: "kidsearch" <kidsearch@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Prophet Partners Inc." <Domains@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
<ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [ga] keeping expired domains by a registrar



Ted, I don't fault anyone for how they make money. As I said, I've
made
money in the domain business. More than most in the nineties. it's
why
they
call me NameCritic. So I do not fault domainers for their business
practice.
I know you are against domain tasting, so won't even go there and I
hope
you
know I realize your position on that. I believe we feel the same way
on
that
topic.

However, the hiring of a lot of people, even from a third world
country
to
manually register names they want would eliminate a lot of domain
tasting,
etc. it would be much better for the average user if this was what
they
had
to do. Thanks for that suggestion.

Where you make the mistake in my opinion, is believing the Internet
should
be based on capitalism. This is a US-Centric attitude and benefits
those
in
several developed nations. ICANN is supposed to represent ALL users
worldwide. Any policy that provides benefits based on ones ability to
pay
more for something than someone else makes that a flawed policy for
the
purposes ICANN was created for.

Chris McElroy aka NameCritic
http://www.articlecontentprovider.com



----- Original Message ----- From: "Prophet Partners Inc." <Domains@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [ga] keeping expired domains by a registrar



> Hi Chris, > > By human nature, everyone is out to promote their own best
interest. We
> neither deny that we operate a business to make money nor the right
for
> others to do the same. However, we emphasize that we believe in
doing
> so
> ethically and fairly, without participating in domain tasting or
> abusive
> trademark registrations.
> http://www.nic.us/policies/docs/aaa/Award_49_413_1_06.pdf
>
> While it is certainly possible to prevent automatic scripts from
> registering
> domains, what makes you think that an ordinary registrant is going
to
have
> a
> chance against several thousand knowledgeable domainers trying to
manually
> register valuable domains that are being deleted on a daily basis?
What's
> to
> stop a domainer from hiring 100 part time workers for an hour each
day
to
> manually register valuable deleted domains to increase their
chances of
> success? Using Wall Street as an example, do you think that
eliminating
> automated program trading is going to actually benefit individual
> investors?
>
> In our reply to Joop yesterday, we pointed out that there are
> real-world
> consequences of action/inaction. Registrants have months of notice
to
> renew
> before expiration, in addition to extra time after expiration
during
> the
> grace period. Barring extraordinary circumstances such as the
Registerfly
> meltdown which involves alleged fraud, registrants should have to
face
the
> consequences. If someone lost their job, had medical problems or
got
> divorced and couldn't pay their mortgage, what do you think the
bank is
> going to do?
>
> The redistribution of expired domains is fair and equitable, as
they go
to
> the person/entity willing to pay the most for them, at a particular
point
> in
> time. In the capital markets, orders are given priority based on
price
and
> secondly on time. This is the basis for capitalism and represents
an
> efficient marketplace. Given a point in time, if Person A wants to
buy
XYZ
> stock at $10 and Person B wants to pay the fair market price of
$100
> for
> XYZ, should XYZ shares be sold to Person A or Person B? The same
situation
> applies to expired domains. Why should Person A be given the
> opportunity
> to
> buy at $10 (with lower monetary risk) over Person B who is willing
to
pay
> more money at $100 (with higher monetary risk) at that point in
time?
> As
> mentioned earlier, there is nothing to prevent an ordinary
registrant
from
> buying or bidding on an expired domain, provided they are willing
to
> pay
> the
> price. Note that this argument is in favor of the registrars, who
would
> pocket the money and not from us as the customer, who would be
paying
the
> money.
>
> Contrary to your belief, we neither have an interest in suppressing

> your
> opinions nor that of anyone else. Although we greatly respect your
> contribution to this list, we believe that your opinions on this
matter
> are
> based on a socialist ideal and not rooted in economic reality. We
have
> presented valid points that address your concerns and would be
interested
> in
> hearing your feedback as well as others on the GA list.
>
> Sincerely,
> Ted
> Prophet Partners Inc.
> http://www.ProphetPartners.com
> http://www.Premium-Domain-Names.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kidsearch" <kidsearch@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Prophet Partners Inc." <Domains@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
> <ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 9:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [ga] keeping expired domains by a registrar
>
>
>> I expect everyone involved in making money on this to have the
same
> opinion
>> Ted.
>>
>> Again, scripts can be written to register expired names and yes it
has
> been
>> around for years. As early as 1995. I was in the domain
speculation
> business
>> in 1995 and know about these scripts intimately. However, for
every
>> script
>> that can be written to do this, one can be written to counter it.
it
>> could
>> be made impossible to register the expired names by script.
Registrars
> have
>> not found it to be profitable to do so is the only reason it has
not
been
>> done.
>>
>> Domainers are a large part of a registrars income so they tailor
>> things
>> to
>> suit the largest customers they have. Normal business practice but
still
> not
>> what is best for the web overall in my honest opinion. You are of
cours4e
>> welcome to disagree and if I was in the business still, I might
have
been
>> right there alongside you, who knows. Right now, as a member of a
>> list,
> who
>> is supposed to try to represent the most users, not those who own
the
>> most
>> domain names, I believe the process has gone on long enough and
that
it's
>> time that the situation was corrected.
>>
>> Not idealistic at all to try and represent the best interest of
users
>> instead of my own interests Ted. I respect that you want your view
>> represented and wish all other views to be called optimistic in
hopes
>> they
>> will be ignored. Everyone's view here is valid. That's the beauty
of
it.
>>
>> Chris McElroy aka NameCritic
>> http://www.articlecontentprovider.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Prophet Partners Inc." <Domains@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [ga] keeping expired domains by a registrar
>>
>>
>> > Hi Chris,
>> >
>> > Your thoughts on this are idealistic, not realistic. The reality
is
>> > that
>> > expiring domains are still available on a first-come first-serve
basis.
>> > The
>> > domain auctions through registrars such as Network Solutions are

>> > open
>> > to
>> > the
>> > public and there is nothing to prevent anyone from
participating,
> provided
>> > they are willing to pay the price. Given that drop catching has
been
>> > automated via scripts for several years already, what makes you
>> > think
> that
>> > allowing domains to drop via the normal deletion cycle would
offer
any
>> > advantage to the normal registrant? If the registrars didn't
auction
>> > the
>> > domains, then companies like SnapNames or Pool would, upon
immediately
>> > registering the domain after Pending Delete.
>> >
>> > Expired domains are essentially abandoned property. If you fail
to
pay
> the
>> > mortgage, your home gets foreclosed and is auctioned off to
someone
> else.
>> > In
>> > the real world, lotteries only exist for undeveloped public
land,
>> > not
> for
>> > formerly private property. IMO, the current environment for
expiring
>> > domains
>> > represents a healthy and competitive market.
>> >
>> > Sincerely,
>> > Ted
>> > Prophet Partners Inc.
>> > http://www.ProphetPartners.com
>> > http://www.Premium-Domain-Names.com
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "kidsearch" <kidsearch@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > To: "Nevett, Jonathon" <jnevett@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Gomes,
>> > Chuck"
>> > <cgomes@xxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Danny Younger" <dannyyounger@xxxxxxxxx>;
>> > "Bashar
>> > Al-Abdulhadi" <bashar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Cc: <ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:29 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [ga] keeping expired domains by a registrar
>> >
>> >
>> >> I see the justification used here for auctioning names off
after
>> > expiration,
>> >> but it defeats the first-come first-serve nature of domain
names
>> >> and
> how
>> >> they should be distributed. If a domain name expires, it should
go
>> >> back
>> > into
>> >> the pool so that anyone can register the name at normal
>> >> registration
>> > prices
>> >> period. There really is no justification, other than greed by
> registrars
>> > who
>> >> control these names for holding auctions, using them in parking
> schemes,
>> > and
>> >> making deals with domainers to use them for profit they in turn
share
>> >> with
>> >> the registrar.
>> >>
>> >> Justification comes easy when it's something that makes you
money.
>> >> However
>> >> it denies users the right to register a name after it has
dropped
into
>> >> the
>> >> pool.
>> >>
>> >> Chris McElroy aka NameCritic
>> >> http://www.articlecontentprovider.com






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