AW: [ga] Tasting and other errant or illegal registration activity, was: Re: [ga] List Rules

["Dominik Filipp" <dominik.filipp@xxxxxxxx>]

Jeff,
 
1. I am happy we have reached common agreement upon this point.
 
2. You have missed the point here. I am not talking about tasting registrars 
and their practice here but about all registrars regarding the 10% provision 
proposed. As stated in the recommendation 10% out of all new net-gained 
registrations qualify for deletes at no charge. In the related post there is a 
link to the service measuring net-gain registrations during one month period at 
all registrars. You do not have to be a mathematician to count up the net-gains 
for say first 20-30 registrars listed out there and calculate the corresponding 
10% ratio. Please go through on the post if needed. I got the number by similar 
calculation, which implies that the mentioned number of domains are available 
for abuse. I am not saying they will be abused but they can be abused at any 
time registrars decide to do so. That is, another dangerous loophole burned up 
directly into the system.
 
By the way I am impressed by your trust towards key tasting registrars :-)
 
3. Partly agree here. Nevertheless, I am talking about tendencies here and rely 
on what big players such as PayPal and eBay state on this point. If they feel 
as being offended by phishing being fed by domain tasting then I tend to 
believe them more than to anybody else as they are facing the practice in the 
first place and they do have more evidence collected regarding a possible 
malicious impact caused by tasting. But yes, I have no further evidence 
concerning this. It would be worth collecting some.
 
4. I, Chris, and perhaps some others elaborated on this in 3-5 contributions 
posted and available on the GA. But getting it summarized, there are 3 
keyreasons for supporting the assessment
 
a) The AGP gives registrars unprecedent privilege over any other online 
business. All other businesess must be facing the same problems daily without 
crying over lack of such privilege. Simply the do their work properly. Domain 
registration business is the same business as any other else.
 
b) The features listed by registrars is of little help towards registrants. 
Some of them does not exist at all or are limited to a very small number of 
privileged registrants (typo-corrections), or they are extra features that only 
businesess with fair trade practices can afford. By no means the domain 
registration business with such large-scale abuse proven.
 
c) Registrants are customers of registrars and registries, which should serve 
and respect their customer. That is why the position of registrars and 
registries is subordinate to registrants. Maybe roughly said. Sorry.
 
5. Disagree. This input is the only quantifiable patterrn of public view 
collected so far. If even it was not intended to being such we could reconsider 
the position and take them more into account. The bottom-up. Let us all have a 
try.
 
Dominik

________________________________

Von: Neuman, Jeff [mailto:Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx]
Gesendet: Do 03.04.2008 03:08
An: Dominik Filipp; chris@xxxxxx; Elisabeth Porteneuve
Cc: ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Betreff: RE: [ga] Tasting and other errant or illegal registration activity, 
was: Re: [ga] List Rules



Thanks for your response.  Here is my response to you which corresponds to your 
numbers..

 

1.      I never have endorsed the $.20 ICANN tax and it is not part of the 
motion. 
2.      Most tasting registrars have very few (comparatively) actual 
registrations, so your number is quite misleading.  Maybe in the aggregate 
there could in theory be that many, but your logic is faulty.  I have spoken to 
a number of the key tasters and according to them at most 1% of the names 
tasted are actually registered.  Thus, for every 100 names tasted, only 1 is 
worth paying the registration fee on.  Put another way, under the motion, that 
taster registrar would still have to pay full price on 89% of the registrations 
(100- the 10% (threshold) - the 1% the would have taken anyway).  Assuming 100 
registrations and $6.00 being the price per name (just to pick a round number 
which is low), that would mean that for just 1 name that is worth the traffic, 
the taster will essentially have to pay 89*6 (or $534).  No one name is worth 
that amount.  Using the AGP to taste will just stop.  P.S., I am not a 
mathematician so my numbers may be a little off, but the point remains the 
same. 
3.      Most phishing attacks to date are from actual registered names that 
have been registered for longer than 5 days.  I wont go too deep into it right 
now, but in order to launch a successful attack, especially for the 
dissemination of bots and malware, a period of time longer than 5 days is 
generally required.  That is not true in all cases, but in the investigations I 
have been involved in, that is generally the case.  So, I disagree with your 
assessment. 
4.      Your statement that you have found no legitimate use for the AGP is 
based on what?  Certainly not the presentations and other evidence provided by 
GoDaddy and other reputable registrars who have shown they use it for 
legitimate purposes. 
5.      Majority of what public?  The GA list of which there are very few 
members of the public participating?  The GNSO survey where most of the 
respondents were IP attorneys responding after INTA sent out a mass e-mailing 
"urging" its members to reply.  That "survey" as you call it was not a survey 
at all, but rather a request for information.  I know...I was one of the 
members of the group that crafted it.  If you re-read what you call the 
"survey" it will tell you that it was not a survey and was not intended to be 
quantified. 

 

I have been reading the e-mails.  Perhaps I am one of the few who have...and I 
am not even on the council.  Dominick, I appreciate this dialogue, but 
unfortunately, the registries and registrars (the overwhelming majority of whom 
do not profit from tasting despite claims to the contrary) are not persuaded by 
those arguments.

 

 

 

Jeffrey J. Neuman, Esq. 
Sr. Director, Law, Advanced Services  & 

Business Development 

NeuStar, Inc. 
e-mail: Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx>  

________________________________

From: Dominik Filipp [mailto:dominik.filipp@xxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 7:50 PM
To: Neuman, Jeff; chris@xxxxxx; Elisabeth Porteneuve
Cc: ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: AW: [ga] Tasting and other errant or illegal registration activity, 
was: Re: [ga] List Rules

 

Jeff,

 

the problem is that both the current GNSO recommendations or motions are still 
insufficient in addressing the effective solution of domain tasting. You would 
appreciate some evidence? Ok, I'll provide you with some.

 

The AGP is an extremely abusive concept even in smaller volume.

 

1. The first recommendation adopting the $0.20 fee for deletes seems to be 
curbing the practice at first glance. But in fact tasters can easily recover 
from the provision and even increase the number of domains being tastet. 
Shocked? Read my a bit anecdotical but factual post explaining and reasoning 
this modified practice sent to the GA with subject title "How to Unleash Domain 
Tasting for $0.20?" Unfortunately, we are not allowed to cross-link the posts 
so you will have to find it manually.

 

2. The second recommendation adopting 10% free AGP deletion cap proposed still 
allows for more than 100,000 domains every single month to being abused via 
domain tasting. Due to unclear and vague formulations in the proposal that 
raises more questions than answers this number can be much higher. How is that 
possible? How did I calculate the number? Read my post with subject title 
"Current Drafted Motion - Another Sort of Speculation?" sent to the GA.

 

3. Increased danger of domain tasting has also been clearly recognized in terms 
of facilitating phishing practice. See recent comments posted by PayPal and 
eBay on the domain-tasting comment list. Needless to say that phishing can 
operate even on a small number of abused domains trying to fool large Internet 
community and can be gaining remarkable profit out of just few stolen 
credentials.

 

4. Large community of users is facing this colossal abuse being commited on 
them on daily basis. That is why the AGP, which is the core of the abuse, is 
being considered here to be eliminated in the first place. So far, we have not 
found ANY legitimate reason for keeping the AGP, especially when considering 
the pros and cons viewed from the perspective of all stakeholders in the 
Internet community. See Chris's, my and other's comments on this posted on the 
GA.

 

5. The majority of public voice has clearly and explicitly expressed its desire 
to eliminate the AGP during the official GNSO survey. This voice cannot be 
ignored and must be taken into account.

 

Please also read other mails posted on domain-tasting comment forum as well as 
those related to the issue on the GA. All arguments and reasoning mentioned 
there cannot be comprimed and incorporated into this one mail.

 

Dominik

 

P.S. Sorry if I am not able to react in a timely fashion but I am currently 
very busy during my business trip.

 

________________________________

Von: owner-ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx im Auftrag von Neuman, Jeff
Gesendet: Mi 02.04.2008 20:57
An: chris@xxxxxx; Jeffrey A. Williams; Elisabeth Porteneuve
Cc: ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Betreff: RE: [ga] Tasting and other errant or illegal registration activity, 
was: Re: [ga] List Rules

Chris,

 

I don't mean to harp on the definition of "kiting", but I feel like I need to 
clear up a misconception.  Kiting does not really occur as often as has been 
represented.  I am enclosing an e-mail I sent last year to the domain tasting 
group about this issue in which Tim actually agreed with me.  The reason I am 
doing this is because Kiting is a loaded term that conjures up such negative 
emotions and it really doesn't occur that much.  VeriSign has represented that 
they have similar stats.

 

To answer your other point, there are a number of solutions that would do away 
with the problem, but that does not mean we should adopt those.  For example, 
we could do away with registrars, but I am not in any way advocating that :-) 
.The point is that I believe you should take the least restrictive means to 
solve a problem, rather than a solution that will likely have other negative 
effects in addition to solving the problem.  For example, when we were 
examining transfers years ago, the transfer process was being abused.  We could 
have solved the problem by stating that transfers would no longer be allowed.  
That would have been ridiculous, but it would have solved the problem.  After 
all, without a transfer process, the process could not be abused.  I know 
that's an absurd example, but you get my point.

 

I can't do anything about your mistrust of ICANN, but I can tell you that some 
of us registries and registrars are trying to do the right thing.  NeuStar and 
Afilias submitted proposals on our own to address the problem in a manner which 
we believe will (i) curb the abuses, (ii) be easily implementable by 
registrars, and (iii) still allow for the legitimate uses of the AGP.  There is 
nothing financial in this for us -- just extra costs in implementation and 
perhaps the knowledge for doing what we believe is right.  It may not be your 
perfect solution, but if it works, then why not try it.


I need to get back to paid work as well.


Thanks.

 

 

Jeffrey J. Neuman, Esq. 
Sr. Director, Law, Advanced Services  & 

Business Development 

NeuStar, Inc. 
e-mail: Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx>  

________________________________

From: chris@xxxxxx [mailto:chris@xxxxxx] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 1:52 PM
To: Neuman, Jeff; Jeffrey A. Williams; Elisabeth Porteneuve
Cc: ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ga] Tasting and other errant or illegal registration activity, 
was: Re: [ga] List Rules

 

Thank you Jeff. FYI, I would really like this to be resolved. I am not just 
against registrars, registries, and ICANN. I am simply going by ICANN's past 
history and performance when it comes to these type of issues when referring to 
it. If there is mistrust, there is good reason.

 

Actaully what Bob is referring to IS kiting and not tasting. Tasting is when 
anyone uses the AGP to try out a domain name. Kiting happens when they work 
with others so that person number 2 picks it right back up for another 5 days, 
person 3 does the same, and so on and so on. That domain name is not off the 
market for 5 days. It is off the market for an indeterminate amount of time 
depending on the size of their network.

 

Tim is a good guy and I respect his opinion as I do yours Jeff. However, I have 
to wonder if he is choosing this because it is at least a good start or if he 
actually believes this will solve the problem.

 

The evidence you ask for cannot exist and I assume that is a rhetorical 
question. It's like going into a lab and finding an unlimited button and 
someone says I wonder what this does. We cannot know until you push the button. 

 

However I do know that if the AGP did not exist, it would solve the problem. 
That is fact. Indisputable. So choosing that solution will definitely solve the 
problem and the other method "might" solve the problem or at least we do not 
have proof that it won't solve the problem, so you would rather choose the 
"might" method. I would rather choose the definite method.

 

You do agree that we can "prove" that the elimination of the AGP will stop the 
abuse of same right?

 

And Jeff, I do appreciate the dialogue. We may disagree, but I do not mean any 
of it as a personal attack on anyone. I have to work for clients who want 
better domain names and many of those are not available due to tasting and 
kiting being allowed for this long.

 

Chris McElroy 

        ----- Original Message ----- 

        From: Neuman, Jeff <mailto:Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx>  

        To: chris@xxxxxx ; Jeffrey A. Williams <mailto:jwkckid1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
; Elisabeth Porteneuve <mailto:elisabeth.porteneuve@xxxxxxxxxxxx>  

        Cc: ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 

        Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 1:06 PM

        Subject: RE: [ga] Tasting and other errant or illegal registration 
activity, was: Re: [ga] List Rules

         

        Thank you for this.

         

        FYI, Tim Ruiz, who is in senior management at GoDaddy was on the 
drafting committee and supports the motion.  The motion proposes to end the 
types of abuses Bob is talking about.  However, I will note for the record that 
what Bob calls kiting is not actually kiting, but rather tasting.  Big 
difference.

         

        My question still remains.  If the motion goes through and is 
implemented, what evidence is there that this will not stop the AGP abuses?

         

        With respect to your questions:
        
        1.  There has been very little tasting going on in .biz or .us.  Any 
tasting that has occurred did not start until last year.  So no, I was not part 
of anything related to this prior to when the issues were brought forward by 
the ALAC in their draft issues report.

         

        2.      It is my belief that all known abuses to the AGP will be 
eliminated by the proposal.   Will tasting be eliminated?  Tougher question, 
but the answer is the same whether this motion is adopted or the AGP is 
eliminated.  In other words, eliminating the AGP will not sole any more 
problems in my view that the current version.  It will create additional 
problems with respect to legitimate deletes. 
        3.      Registrars have abused the AGP, however, the motion should cure 
the known abuses. 
        4.      And no, I do not believe personally that the response to the 
abuses has been as quick as it should have been either from ICANN or by the 
Registrars.  That said, I believe NeuStar's implementation will solve the known 
issues with the AGP. 

         

        Also, I believe you asked whether I believe registrars just made up 
reasons for legitimately using the AGP to benefit from tasting or something 
like that.  The answer is no.  Most of the reasons for keeping the AGP were 
submitted by companies like GoDaddy and others that do not engage in tasting or 
have ever abused the AGP.

         

        Sorry if I missed some questions, but I hope I got most of them.  If I 
did not, feel free to ask again.  (Although maybe we can start a new 
chain...this one got long and hard to follow).

         

        Jeffrey J. Neuman, Esq. 
        Sr. Director, Law, Advanced Services  & 

        Business Development 

        NeuStar, Inc. 
        e-mail: Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx>  

        
________________________________


        From: chris@xxxxxx [mailto:chris@xxxxxx] 
        Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 12:50 PM
        To: Neuman, Jeff; Jeffrey A. Williams; Elisabeth Porteneuve
        Cc: ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: Re: [ga] Tasting and other errant or illegal registration 
activity, was: Re: [ga] List Rules

         

        Here is a letter written to ICANN in 2004 from Bob Parsons. 
http://www.godaddy.com/gdshop/pdf/100804_letter_iyd.pdf 
<http://www.godaddy.com/gdshop/pdf/100804_letter_iyd.pdf> 

         

        This is from april of 2006 

         

        "35 million names registered in April. 32 million were part of a kiting 
scheme. A serious problem gets worse. 

         

        In a nutshell, here's how domain kiting works.
        Domain kiting registrars put up mini-Web sites - loaded with search 
engine links - for domains names for which they never pay. When people land on 
these Web sites and click on the links, money is made. It's easy to spot one of 
these registrars as the number of total registrations they make often far 
exceed the number of permanent registrations - or names for which they actually 
pay. This is why during the month of April 2006, out of 35 million 
registrations, only a little more than 2 million were permanent or actually 
purchased. The vast majority of the rest were part of the domain kiting scheme. 
        
        Now let's drill down a little further into domain kiting 101.
        A registrar who participates in this scheme - Go Daddy and its 
affiliates do not participate in this scheme - makes a large deposit - 
sometimes a huge deposit - at a registry. Then the registrar registers as many 
domain names as the deposit will allow. For example, if the registrar makes a 
$600,000 deposit at VeriSign Registry, they could register 100,000 .COM domain 
names as .COM names cost $6.00 per year."

         

        Now if registrars are engaged in domain kiting how do you assume that 
registrars and registries opinion of how to solve this issue should carry more 
weight than any user on this list or any user on the web for that matter. Since 
it is the very industry doing the domain kiting, why should recommendations 
from that industry be taken seriously regarding this issue?

         

        It's not like it just now happened and your industry is taking 
progressive steps to police it. It was going on since before 2004. So where 
were the other registries and registrars, excluding Bob Parsons, who did speak 
out, when it was going on then? Where was your outrage at a few rogue 
registrars abusing the AGP? It was ignored because there was no public outrage. 
Now that there is, the registries and registrars step up and tell us that they 
will take the lead to solve this problem and that we should all just trust you. 
As you said our mistrust of the registries and registrars and ICANN is no 
reason to suggest the elimination of the AGP.

         

        Had all of the "legitimate" registries and registrars stepped up to 
solve this issue in 2004, maybe it would be different. Maybe you could raise 
the issue that you should be trusted to come up with a solution. But that did 
not happen did it? And as far as trusting ICANN to solve the domain kiting and 
tasting issue, why are we just now addressing this? Where were they then? Where 
have they been on every single issue? On the side of big business and 
registrars and registries and never on the side of users. 

         

        The abuse of the AGP has hurt small business owners and users by 
creating a false shortage of domain names. The registries and registrars and 
ICANN allowed it to happen. Now we should just trust them to fix it? Why? What 
evidence or prior good acts can you point to that suggests that this industry 
or ICANN deserves that trust?

         

        More from Bob Parsons;

         

        Domain kiting registrars abuse the 5 day refund period to work their 
scheme.
        After a domain name is registered, a registrar has five days to cancel 
a domain name registration - i.e. drop the name - and get their money back. 
Domain kiting registrars abuse this rule and cancel the lion's share of the 
names they register just before the five day period expires - so they get their 
money back. But then something unexpected happens. After names are cancelled or 
dropped, the domain kiting registrar goes out and immediately registers the 
same names again. The domain kiting registrar will then put the same simple Web 
site back up for each domain name, wait another five days and then cancel all 
the names again - just in time to get a full refund. And for most names caught 
up in the domain kiting scheme, this process will repeat itself over and over 
and over. 

         

        Meet DirectNIC.
        You might find the registration statistics of DirectNIC somewhat 
interesting. DirectNIC <http://www.directnic.com/>  registered more than 8.4 
million domain names in April 2006, but only permanently registered - or paid 
for - 51.4 thousand of those. The trend was the same in March, when DirectNIC 
registered 7.6 million names and only permanently registered - or paid for - 
52.5 thousand. Whatever could DirectNIC be doing? Why are they dropping and 
re-registering all those names - again - and again - and again? And why doesn't 
ICANN care?
        
        But wait, there's more - many more.
        And the list of registrars, that register many more domain names than 
they actually purchase, goes on and on. 
        
        ICANN fiddles while the Domain system burns.
        I will point out that at this time, unlike check kiting - there is 
nothing illegal about domain kiting. Of course, domain kiting should be 
illegal. ICANN <http://www.icann.org/>  is perfectly happy with the practice. 
In spite of many complaints they have done nothing to put an end to it. 
        
        ICANN's favorite comment.
        Since my last blog article a number of people have contacted ICANN and 
quite predictably, but sadly, ICANN has had no comment. 
        
        Domain kiting is out of control and must be stopped.
        This domain kiting practice needs to be stopped. It benefits only those 
few organizations that are pillaging the domain name system. It takes millions 
of good names off the system, and makes them unavailable for the purposes for 
which those names were originally intended. It places an unnecessary burden on 
every registry. 

        You said that "There are a lot of conclusory statements made in the 
e-mails calling for the abolishment of the AGP. Yet, there is little evidence 
behind those conclusions."

         

        When has there not been evidence? None of the above statements by Bob 
Parsons refers to evidence of registrars engaging in domain kiting?

         

        You also said, "evidence was presented by the Registrars on how the AGP 
was used for legitimate purposes."

         

        And you do not expect them to come up with reasons to keep the AGP when 
some of them benefit from it in non-legitmate ways?

         

        You say "Neither the registries nor the registrars will support the 
abolishment of the AGP because of these legitimate purposes."

         

        Are you sure that is the reason? Do you ask us to believe that only 
"legitimate reasons motivate the registrars to keep the AGP? None of them want 
to keep it for other reasons? Where does Bob Parsons stand on the issue?

         

        Then you say "The fact that your gut tells you there could in theory be 
issues or that you general distrust registries, registrars and ICANN is NOT a 
basis to call for the abolishment of the AGP, where legitimate uses have been 
demonstrated."

         

        Questions

         

        Where has this trust been earned in regards to the issue of domain 
tasting and domain kiting? 

         

        Did you write the proposal you speak of in 2004 or just recently since 
this has gotten more public attention? 

         

        Do you think domain kiting and domain tasting is a theory? 

         

        Do you think that it is only a theory that registrars have engaged in 
this practice? 

         

        Do you believe ICANN has addressed these issues in a timely fashion? 

         

        Do you think the registrars and registries have acted to police their 
own industry in regards to these issues in a timely fashion?

         

        I'm really curious as to your answers to those questions. It may be a 
matter of perception. If you perceive that ICANN and the registrars and 
registries have acted in a timely fashion then your idea of timely is much 
different than it is for many of us. Had those actions in your proposal been 
suggested when this was first brought to everyone's attention, then they woiuld 
definitely have been taken more seriously and more drastic action might not 
have been called for.

         

        Chris McElroy

         

         

         

         

         

        ----- Original Message ----- 

        From: "Neuman, Jeff" <Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx 
<mailto:Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx> >

        To: "Jeffrey A. Williams" <jwkckid1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
<mailto:jwkckid1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >; "Elisabeth Porteneuve" 
<elisabeth.porteneuve@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:elisabeth.porteneuve@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >

        Cc: <ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >

        Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 11:29 AM

        Subject: RE: [ga] Tasting and other errant or illegal registration 
activity, was: Re: [ga] List Rules

         

        > 
        > I feel an obligation to respond, since my comments are quoted here.  
        > 
        > There are a lot of conclusory statements made in the e-mails calling 
for
        > the abolishment of the AGP. Yet, there is little evidence behind those
        > conclusions.
        > 
        > I will be the first to state the process followed in getting this 
motion
        > together has been less than stellar....IN short, there were lots of
        > flaws.  I have pointed this out on a number of occasions.  That said,
        > evidence was presented by the Registrars on how the AGP was used for
        > legitimate purposes.  As a registry, I have personally seen how the 
AGP
        > has been used in cases where a reseller or registrant has attempted to
        > defraud a registrar.  Just because you may not have personally
        > benefitted from the AGP, does not mean that other registrants have 
not.
        > Neither the registries nor the registrars will support the abolishment
        > of the AGP because of these legitimate purposes.  Let me also state 
for
        > the record, there is no financial or other benefits NeuStar will 
receive
        > by keeping an AGP.  In fact, one might argue that eliminating the AGP
        > will result in NeuStar getting more money because no refunds will ever
        > be issued.  However, we do see the benefits of the AGP if used 
properly
        > and therefore, despite the possibility of making more money, we do
        > support keeping a limited AGP (as you saw in our proposal).  
        > 
        > What I have not seen from anyone in support of eliminating the AGP is
        > evidence as to (i) why the proposed motion will not solve the abuses 
of
        > the AGP, and (ii) more importantly, if the solution does solve these
        > abuses of the AGP, as NeuStar believes, why is eliminating the AGP
        > necessary.  The fact that your gut tells you there could in theory be
        > issues or that you general distrust registries, registrars and ICANN 
is
        > NOT a basis to call for the abolishment of the AGP, where legitimate
        > uses have been demonstrated.
        > 
        > If you believe I am wrong, please provide EVIDENCE....not gut 
feelings,
        > disbelief, conjectures, distrust and conspiracy theories.  I really do
        > want to see this evidence.  
        > 
        > Like Roberto said earlier (or something like this), why do you need a
        > bazooka to kill a mosquito.
        > 
        > 
        > Jeffrey J. Neuman, Esq. 
        > Sr. Director, Law, Advanced Services  & 
        > 
        > Business Development 
        > 
        > NeuStar, Inc. 
        > e-mail: Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx>  
        > 
        > 
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: owner-ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:owner-ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
[mailto:owner-ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
        > Of Jeffrey A. Williams
        > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 10:37 AM
        > To: Elisabeth Porteneuve
        > Cc: ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; 
dstansell@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dstansell@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ;
        > aheineman@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:aheineman@xxxxxxxxxxxx> ; 
greg.abbott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:greg.abbott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ;
        > board-review-tor@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:board-review-tor@xxxxxxxxx> ; 
jeffrey@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:jeffrey@xxxxxxxxx> ; twomey@xxxxxxxxx 
<mailto:twomey@xxxxxxxxx> ;
        > public.information@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
<mailto:public.information@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
        > Subject: [ga] Tasting and other errant or illegal registration 
activity,
        > was: Re: [ga] List Rules
        > 
        > 
        > Elisabeth and all,
        > 
        >  Thank you for your thoughtful and somewhat detailed
        > response.  Very much welcomed by me anyway, and I hope 
        > by others of the GA members.  Perhaps you would be
        > so kind as to forward this, your response to the ALAC as
        > well.  I am sure it would be of interest to some on
        > that forum as well.  I shall be sure to forward mine
        > in response!  >:)
        > 
        >  The remainder of my remarks, thoughts, concerns in 
        > response will be interspersed below elisabeths and
        > are intended to be very general and applied to the
        > GA members as a whole or other perhaps interested
        > parties and addressed to/cc.
        > 
        > -----Original Message-----
        >>From: Elisabeth Porteneuve <elisabeth.porteneuve@xxxxxxxxxxxx 
<mailto:elisabeth.porteneuve@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >
        >>Sent: Apr 1, 2008 6:45 AM
        >>To: Roberto Gaetano <roberto@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:roberto@xxxxxxxxx> >, 
'Danny Younger'
        > <dannyyounger@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:dannyyounger@xxxxxxxxx> >, 'Hugh 
Dierker' <hdierker2204@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:hdierker2204@xxxxxxxxx> >,
        > debbie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:debbie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> , 
ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
        >>Cc: Elisabeth Porteneuve <elisabeth.porteneuve@xxxxxxxxxxxx 
<mailto:elisabeth.porteneuve@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >
        >>Subject: Re: [ga] List Rules
        >>
        >>
        >>I went through PPT presentations attached to the quoted message (via
        > Danny) 
        
>>http://gnso.icann.org/mailing-lists/archives/registrars/msg05626.html, 
        >>re-read Jeff Neuman's quotes from New Delhi (via Dominik) 
        >>http://gnso.icann.org/mailing-lists/archives/ga-200709/msg01071.html ,
        > Ross 
        >>Rader's note 
        >>http://gnso.icann.org/mailing-lists/archives/ga-200709/msg01300.html ,
        > but 
        >>also browsed contractual reports ICANN receives from registries at 
        >>http://www.icann.org/tlds/monthly-reports/ , especially com-net ones.
        > 
        > I did a quick review of this report and found it very interesting.
        > I would like to ask if it could be acceuented on the GNSO web
        > site more promonantly for others whom have recently ask, to review.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>At the end of my reading, I think I understand better.
        >>
        >>First of all, I understand the AGP serves the large spectra of non
        > written 
        >>purposes, for the benefit of registrars and their resellers. My blunt 
        >>perception from PPTs is that a number of registrars run insecure
        > software, 
        >>and let their uneducated resellers to do as much mess as possible - 
all
        > that 
        >>is on the dark side of the moon, because outside of ICANN's contracts,
        > AGP 
        >>is a kind of insurance to fix unspoken disasters.
        > 
        >  Your first sentance here really get's to the central aspect of the
        > AGP's existance and or need/lack there of.  Non written purposes
        > for the existance of the AGP has a "Gaming" aspect that seems to
        > be central to the problem of Tasting, warehousing, kiting, and
        > other related errant registration activity.  As such, the only 
        > method or means by which those aspects of the AGP can be addressed 
        > is to either document what does and does not constitute the AGP's use
        > for those now unwritten benifits to registrants, or the elimination
        > of the AGP, which I Chris, and Dominik proposals/motions outline
        > and call for, becomes necessary.  Chris and myself have doubts as
        > to wheather of not such specifics in modification of the AGP to
        > provide for the desired flexability or the now non written benifits
        > can be adaquately accomplished, and I personally am of the opinion
        > the policing of same would be a huge burden of responsibility on
        > the ICANN staff that is obviously desired to be eliminated.  Some
        > of those oversite functions I know can be automated programatically
        > in the registration software, but given that less than secure
        > registration software in used a additional security level requirement
        > would than also become necessary.  I have frequently suggested such
        > be done long ago, but was sarimoniously ignored.  Now that chicken
        > has come home to roost!
        >>
        >>Secondly, VeriSign's reports clearly indicate that some registrars -
        > very 
        >>few - delete N (big N)  times more domains than add or renew, and that
        > is a 
        >>permanent situation. VeriSign's benefit is that their servers'
        > performances 
        >>are permanently benched and able to withstand a lot.
        > 
        > Yes but Verisign in not necessarly respectively comparative to
        > other registries as far as server performance ability is concerned,
        > and does not apply to registrars at all.
        >>
        >>Third, I do not see much AGP benefit to registrants, they do not have
        > EPP 
        >>access to anything, and IMHO cannot make many mistakes (typo happens,
        > of 
        >>course).
        > 
        >  I fully agree.  What is and has for years now been necessary is
        > that registrants have EPP access to their own registered domain name
        > records at both the registrar level and registry level so as to
        > keep them accurate and up to date.  Both registries and registrars
        > have been particularly resistant to providing for this function,
        > and as such errors in both registry/registrar data for any particular
        > Domain name information remain, AND Whois listing data.  This poses at
        > least one, and I would be glad to argue at any time in any setting,
        > several other significant legal and criminal activity directly related
        > to this lack of ability and oversite of domain name registration
        > data.  As such, ICANN by way of the RAA contracts is liable to a
        > limited degree in complicity of such illegal activity accordingly.
        > 
        >  However anyone of reasonable sensibilities can understand a
        > typo error, but as Chris has pointed out those should not occur
        > after the second opt-out has been sent to the registrant and
        > recieved accordingly.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>Eventually I concur with proposed GNSO (Council?) motion - 50 deletes
        > or 
        >>10% - to discriminate between occasional mistakes or incompetence of
        > the 
        >>dark side and permanent tasting by some registrars.
        > 
        >  Plain and simple, registrars that have shown a short history
        > of Tasting or other errent and possibly illegal activity should
        > immediately have their ICANN accreditation revoked and their
        > Domain Name taken down.
        >>
        >>Last, I think ICANN's should compile tendencies of monthly reports to
        > show 
        >>to the Board any new piggyback services happening in registrations.
        > 
        >  I fully agree.  Additionally if such activity is recognized, the
        > offender should be immediately notified and given no longer than
        > 10 calender days to correct the problem or face whatever legal
        > consequences that may and should insue.
        > 
        > My final and personal concerns regarding Tasting and registration
        > of Domain Names:
        > 
        >  As I have repeatedly stated for a number of years, along with
        > Dr. Joe Baptista, my single biggest concern regarding the Domain
        > name registration is similar to the assingment of IP addresses,
        > that being that many, too many Domain Names that are registered
        > are used for illegal activities, such as spam, phishing, and
        > more importantly Child Ponrnography solicitiation or direct
        > Child Ponography activity.  This must be STOPPED and ICANN
        > can and has the direct ability to STOP it if it so chooses.
        > Currently it does not choose to do so, or is unable to do
        > so due to lack of staff and technical ability.  Those are
        > not reasonable excuses IMHO!  Yet the user, just like myself,
        > cannot by themselves stop this errant or illegal activity.
        > But we can, and I persoanally do, just like Dr. Joe, Chris,
        > and Dominik have, object strongly to this lack of responsibility
        > by ICANN!
        > 
        >  As a matter of practicality and legal liability, passing
        > along to LEA's, court systems in any and all countries,
        > judicial systems of same due to a lack of responsibility
        > by the ICANN Bod and legal staff is an unecessary burden
        > upon those LEA's, judicial systems, court systems and an
        > affront to the public that I am sure they do not appriciate
        > at all.  Nor do I! >:(
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>My 2 euro-cents
        >>
        >>Elisabeth Porteneuve
        >>
        >>
        >>----- Original Message ----- 
        >>From: "Roberto Gaetano" <roberto@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:roberto@xxxxxxxxx> 
>
        >>To: "'Danny Younger'" <dannyyounger@xxxxxxxxx 
<mailto:dannyyounger@xxxxxxxxx> >; "'Hugh Dierker'" 
        >><hdierker2204@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:hdierker2204@xxxxxxxxx> >; 
<debbie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:debbie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >;
        > <ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >
        >>Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 11:04 PM
        >>Subject: RE: [ga] List Rules
        >>
        >>
        >>>
        >>> Thanks, Danny, that could be really helpful in trying to sort this
        > issue
        >>> out. At least for me.
        >>> RG
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>> -----Original Message-----
        >>>> From: owner-ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:owner-ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
        >>>> [mailto:owner-ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Danny Younger
        >>>> Sent: Monday, 31 March 2008 21:49
        >>>> To: Hugh Dierker; debbie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
<mailto:debbie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
<mailto:ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
        >>>> Subject: Re: [ga] List Rules
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> Hello Eric,
        >>>>
        >>>> As much as I like motions, we would in a better position if
        >>>> we could draft an issues paper laying out the pros and cons
        >>>> of the AGP.  I note that the registrars have already created
        >>>> a powerpoint on the benefits of the AGP -- you can view it by
        >>>> clicking on the attachment at this url:
        >>>>
        > http://gnso.icann.org/mailing-lists/archives/registrars/msg05626.html 
<http://gnso.icann.org/mailing-lists/archives/registrars/msg05626.html> 
        >>>>
        >>>> By this way, this powerpoint was quite convincing (at least
        >>>> to Board director Steven Goldstein that referenced this
        >>>> presentation at the Washington JPA session), so our
        >>>> counterpoint arguments must necessarily be of equal or
        >>>> greater caliber if we are to convince both the GNSO and the
        >>>> Board over the objections of the registrars.
        >>>>
        >>>> regards,
        >>>> Danny
        >>>>
        >>>> --- Hugh Dierker <hdierker2204@xxxxxxxxx 
<mailto:hdierker2204@xxxxxxxxx> > wrote:
        >>>>
        >>>> > The list has run along very smoothly for several months. The main
        >>>> > reason is voluntary compliance with the rules. Once this concept
        >>>> > breaks down so does the list. We are not talking about
        >>>> individual one
        >>>> > time lapses. For constant repeat violations we must stand
        >>>> strong and
        >>>> > enforce the rules.
        >>>> >
        >>>> >   We are at a point for the first time in months, that the list 
is
        >>>> > coalescing into the form of producing a statement/motion. The AGP
        >>>> > issue seems to have come to a head and more formal resolution
        >>>> > procedures may be appropriate. I believe it is at a motion
        >>>> stage with
        >>>> > 4 seconds. If the desire is to move forward in a constructive
        >>>> > effective matter, we should hear that from the members.
        >>>> >
        >>>> >   Eric
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        > Regards,
        > 
        > Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 277k members/stakeholders strong!)
        > "Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
        >   Abraham Lincoln
        > 
        > "Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is
        > very often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt
        > 
        > "If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B;
        > liability depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
        > P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
        > United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
        > ===============================================================
        > Updated 1/26/04
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