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RE: [dow1-2tf] FW: WSJ.com - New Services Are Making It Easier To Hide Who Is Behind Web Sites

  • To: Tim Ruiz <tim@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Subject: RE: [dow1-2tf] FW: WSJ.com - New Services Are Making It Easier To Hide Who Is Behind Web Sites
  • From: Marc Schneiders <marc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 20:28:31 +0200 (CEST)
  • Cc: "Steven J. Metalitz IIPA" <metalitz@xxxxxxxx>, <dow1-2tf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Paul Stahura <stahura@xxxxxxxx>
  • In-reply-to: <20041001092418.28872.qmail@webmail-2-6.mesa1.secureserver.net>
  • Sender: owner-dow1-2tf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thanks for your observations. I do see your points. Let me make clear,
that I do not want to make registrars responsible for providing
accurate data to law enforcement agencies. What I intended was to
state that the law can always get to the registrant through e.g.
credit card details. If not from the registrar, then form the
reseller, credit card company or even further down the line.

This may seem a relatively long process, if some criminal offense is
committed. Then whois will not help, when serious crimes are at stake.
Those who commit crimes usually try hard to hide. So even a very
accurate and somewhat controlled whois will not help to get these
people. They will simply put in false whois data.  Which is now
possible, and will always be, just as there are false license plates,
false passports, and these are usually harder to fake than whois.

So, I do think it is a waste of time to try to make whois more
accurate to catch the bad guys. It won't work. Not even for the
slightly bad guys.

I suggest we go for another perspective: Why is it good to make sure
your whois data are accurate? Lots of reasons: Customers trust you; if
there is some legal issue over the domain, lawyers may contact you
easily and solve the problems without much costs; people can see where
you are, etc.

At the same time I'd like to leave to the registrant the decision HOW
MUCH INFO is available. Why could I not decide, that I don't mind that
people know schneiders.org is in Holland, and some means to contact
me over email, but my house address and my phone number, no?

Enforcing accurate whois will not stop or reduce crime. In fact a more
accurate whois may help crimes, like stalking.

Marc Schneiders

On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, at 02:24 [=GMT-0700], Tim Ruiz wrote:

> I'm an alternate rep for the registrars on this task force. I would like to 
> make an informational
> observation here that may be useful.
> Keep in mind that the customer who pays for a registration may or may not 
> also be the registrant. There is
> a distinct difference between the customer and registrant. There are no 
> provisions in the ICANN
> Accreditation Agreement that have anything to do with the registrars 
> customers. I believe most registrars
> and their resellers keep a distinct separation between customers and 
> registrants. I don't believe any
> policy that comes out of the task force should attempt to include any 
> mandates regarding a registrar's
> *customer* data.
> Registrars, as all online merchants, also have agreements with credit card 
> processors that have certain
> restrictions on how that data is used or shared. And other payment methods 
> such as online checks, PayPal,
> wire transfers each have their own issues that would affect how a registrar 
> may use that data.
> Also, I understood Paul's point to be that some registrars provide enabling 
> technology for resellers but
> may not be directly processing their payments. So the registrar of record 
> will not have direct access to
> the payment details of the customers of those resellers, nor should they.
> Tim
>       -------- Original Message --------
>       Subject: RE: [dow1-2tf] FW: WSJ.com - New Services Are Making It Easier
>       To  Hide Who Is Behind Web Sites
>       From: "Marc Schneiders" <marc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>       Date: Fri, October 01, 2004 2:23 am
>       To: "Paul Stahura" <stahura@xxxxxxxx>
>       Cc: "Steven J. Metalitz IIPA" <metalitz@xxxxxxxx>,
>       dow1-2tf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>       Yes, I should have said: credit card details, which the registrar or
>       its reseller must have.
>       On Thu, 30 Sep 2004, at 17:33 [=GMT-0700], Paul Stahura wrote:
>       > Registrars do not always have the credit card details, and many, in 
> fact
>       > seldom do.  This is because a high volume of names are often sold via 
> a
>       > reseller (such as Yahoo or MSN) to the registrant.
>       >
>       > -----Original Message-----
>       > From: owner-dow1-2tf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:owner-dow1-2tf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>       > On Behalf Of Marc Schneiders
>       > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 2:09 PM
>       > To: Steven J. Metalitz IIPA
>       > Cc: dow1-2tf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>       > Subject: Re: [dow1-2tf] FW: WSJ.com - New Services Are Making It 
> Easier To
>       > Hide Who Is Behind Web Sites
>       >
>       > On Thu, 30 Sep 2004, at 11:57 [=GMT-0400], Steven J. Metalitz IIPA 
> wrote:
>       >
>       > > Perhaps TF participants will have more luck with this link......
>       >
>       > Thanks, Steve, it worked.
>       >
>       > One issue the article, which I find quite balanced, doesn't raise, is
>       > that those who really try to evade the law, will simply put in fake
>       > data, and not use cloaking services. Much safer.
>       >
>       > Of course such registrants can always be found over the credit card
>       > details, which the registar must have.
>       >
>       > So what is the real problem if criminal offenses are what we are
>       > talking about?
>       >
>       > Marc
>       >

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