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Re: [registrars] FYI re: Transfers



john, with respect, this is nonsense. when the rules were created the MEANINGS were clear. you identify very technical, very semantic arguments. we are not talking about interpreting the old testament in aramaic. the people involved are almost all still in the process. the FAQ on the ICANN site references this specifically!

anyone can argue anything, especially when there is no enforcement. the meaning was clear when the policy was enacted and we had clear abuse of the policy, followed by a long period of non-enforcement and NOW an ex poste facto legalistic rationalization.

it is also just flat wrong to say the only way to interpret is to litigate. as I imagine you know, the most common method of resolving statutory ambiguity is to issue interpretations. the next most common is to pass regulations. ICANN is not a legislature. issuing interpretations is not only completely appropriate, to take any other path ("let's leave it to the courts to interpret") would be both wrong in spirit and have the effect of slowing any kind of effective policy-making to a halt. issuing interpretations should be done on a more regular basis AND only when there is fair ambiguity causing confusion in the drafting.

john, one of the things (among many) that I love about you is that you do not believe in litigation for litigation sake. I am surprised to hear you say what you did below.

Regards

On Sep 26, 2007, at 6:28 PM, John Berryhill wrote:




are you saying here that in your view the two behaviors referenced in the ICANN advisory, namely i) denying transfers in the grace period and ii) denying transfers for any change in whois information, are allowed for in
the current policy? or are you saying they should be?

To be clear, I am not purporting to interpret the various relevant contracts for another party. The policy is open to interpretation in both instances.

(i)  Transfer during auto-renew:

Looking at the denial prohibition post-expiration, I have already discussed
the inherent problems with the wording here:

*  Nonpayment for a pending or future registration period


However, the policy further clarifies:

"Hence, in the event of a dispute over payment, the Registrar of Record must not employ transfer processes as a mechanism to secure payment for services
from a Registered Name Holder. Exceptions to this requirement are as
follows:

(i) In the case of non-payment for previous registration period (s) if
the transfer is requested after the expiration date, or

(ii) In the case of non-payment of the current registration period, if
transfer is requested before the expiration date."

Both of these can be read to say that a Registrar may deny a transfer during
the auto-renew grace period if that transfer is requested after the
expiration date.

But the larger issue here is the continual dodging of who is the "Registered
Name Holder" after expiration of a domain name.

(ii)  Transfer within 60 days of registrant change

This part is absolutely less ambiguous:

"8 A domain name is in the first 60 days of an initial registration period.

9 A domain name is within 60 days (or a lesser period to be determined) after being transferred (apart from being transferred back to the original Registrar in cases where both Registrars so agree and/or where a decision in
the dispute resolution process so directs)."

Let's look at 8.  What is "an initial registration period"?  If you
registered a domain name 6 months ago, sold me the domain name last week,
when did my "initial registration period" begin?

You are interpreting 8 to refer to the registry creation date for the domain name, but you are not explaining why that is the only way to read paragraph 8. One way to tell what things say is to consider what they DON'T say. Paragraph 8 refers to "an" initial registration period, which implies that a domain name may have more than one "initial registration period", because it
sure as heck doesn't say "THE" initial registration period.

Then we have paragraph 9. It states that a registrar transfer may be denied within sixty days "after being transferred". It does not say "after being transferred from another registrar". It is unconditional as to what sort of
"transferred" is being referenced, and it parenthetically refers to an
exception to the exception involving a particular registrar transfer
scenario.


Now, Elliot, I am absolutely certain that the things I have mentioned are capable of other interpretations, and I will admit to writing this in a
rush.  What I would suggest to you that the issue here is not which
interpretation is "correct". I am also not suggesting that any possible
interpretation is in any sense more reasonable than any other
interpretation. The ONLY mechanism for determining the "correct"
interpretation of ambiguous contract terms is through litigating them. But
it is important not to confuse an interpretation of a policy with some
notion of what the policy IS - particularly where you have policies that conflict with each other in interesting ways. I do not believe that you
would agree that ICANN is the last word on contract interpretation.

Now, concerning being strip-searched whilst shopping, as flattered as I may be that a discussion between us conjures up this image in your mind, I would
point out that when one walks into a retail establishment, a number of
policies are generally posted in a conspicuous place, and relate to things
like bag inspection.  Where one has consented to a policy that is not
unreasonable, parties should be free to contract for services.







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