Re: [ga] Re: [apnic-talk] [Apnic-announce] AfriNIC Moving Closer to Final Recognition as an RIR

[Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Bill and all,

  Bill, I very much respect this much more considered and well worded
response.  The name calling of others that have responded on this thread
is a glaring example of my and our members reasoned concerns.

 I am sorry again, but I must disagree a bit with your response still, Bill.
I have been around sense the early 70's myself.  I have found that being
in several management capacities for nearly 25 years, as well as in military
leadership positions that decision making come down to far too often,
but not always, "the bits on or the bits off".  Same is true with UCE
Spam and the NRO's as wells a RIR's responsibility, and in fact duty
to do ALL it can and everything it can to fight spam for the reasons
I gave in brief.  Read for instance "In search of excellence" in which
recently in www.dallasnews.com 2/9/05 edition an article referring
to this book. The title of the article was "leadership starts with smart
hires" by Cheryl Hall and outlines in brief why poor leadership which
I believe Paul Wilson's response remarks and/or comments glaringly
displayed... That is why I said your either part of the solution or
part of the problem...  My remarks addressed the NRO "appointing"
AfriNIC a IP RIR.  Yet many, not just a few African nations are
havens for spam and the internet stakeholders/users are not well
served if an prevailing of turning a blind eye to that fact and in
the same expressed thought, take lightly UCE spam as one of the
two biggest disruptive and destructive activities on the internet.

  I will conclude here by saying I know that the current US
administration do not share Paul's view and I also know
that Carl Rove does not...  Perhaps AfriNIC, some elements
within ICANN, and certainly many African nations do.  As
such, they are not only part of the problem but central to it...
The proof, Bill, is in the putting...  We have much of that
proof already, now don't we?

Bill Nichols wrote:

> Jeff -- please understand that I was not responding to the specifics of the case but the language/positioning you used.  The particular phrase I quoted  -- "You are either part of the solution or part of the problem" -- is specifically a way of addressing an issue that eliminates most ways of solving a problem among multiple constituencies.
>
> Spam sucks, no doubt.  We've got to continually work on ways of slowing it down or limiting it.  There is no way we're going to eliminate it anytime soon.  That said, I'm not sure I want to play in a wired world where the ability to abuse your anonymity is not available -- if the government or some other entity can track me down no matter what ... that's certainly not an open net or society.  If we want to build a world where most folks don't have to deal with the idiots who are either financially scamming (spammers, phishers, etc.) or spreading sick idealogies (Islamist extremists, KKK/neo Nazis, etc.) we have to create tools, educational pathways, standards, common practices among developers, etc. that limit the ability of the idiots to spread their messages. At this point, my 11 year old son is far more sophisticated than many of my business colleagues -- scary but true.
>
> Basically, those of us who are more savvy in the ways the technology and corresponding community interfaces are evolving have a tremendous responsibility.  I've been floating around out here since the early 70's.  There's been an incredible amount of evolution in the entire biosphere.  It's getting to be time where those of us who been out here a while need to take responsibility for a couple of very simple points: 1) most people on the planet have not been our here for a long time, many are very new, 2) the influence of the medium and technology is definitionally changing many aspects of society.
>
> This is getting *way* off topic, if anyone is interested in following up in a different venue, I'm game...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Williams [mailto:jwkckid1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 2:48 AM
> To: Bill Nichols
> Cc: Paul Wilson; apnic-talk@xxxxxxxxx; secretariat@xxxxxxxxx; General
> Assembly of the DNSO; Kathy Smith; Ruchika Agrawal; Robin Layton; Ranji
> de Silva; Paul Twomey
> Subject: Re: [ga] Re: [apnic-talk] [Apnic-announce] AfriNIC Moving
> Closer to Final Recognition as an RIR
>
> Bill and all,
>
>   I can understand  your concern, but respectfully disagree with your a
> "Over the top" conclusion.  Spam is everyone and every organizations
> problem and if to be eradicated, requires every internet user/stakeholder,
> either individual or organization and/or RIR in this instance to eradicate
> UCE Spam.  Hence Paul's remarks were dismissive at least and
> in our members as well as the law in some countries, far "Over the top"
> and therefore entirely unreasonable...
>
> Bill Nichols wrote:
>
> > "You are either part of the solution or part of
> > the problem. "
> >
> > Sorry, but the above statement is simply out of bounds by definition.  It leaves no room for honest disagreement.  Nothing can be done to seriously address an issue as long as this type of approach is utilized.  I don't claim to be even involved in this discussion or to have an opinion, but that phrase is a perfect example of how not to solve problems or issues.  There is no point in discussing anything with an individual who makes such a statement unless they acknowledge that they are "over the top".  Let's try to keep it rational here, please.
> >s
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-ga@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf
> > Of Jeff Williams
> > Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 2:13 AM
> > To: Paul Wilson
> > Cc: apnic-talk@xxxxxxxxx; secretariat@xxxxxxxxx; General Assembly of the
> > DNSO; Kathy Smith; Ruchika Agrawal; Robin Layton; Ranjit de Silva; Paul
> > Twomey
> > Subject: [ga] Re: [apnic-talk] [Apnic-announce] AfriNIC Moving Closer to
> > Final Recognition as an RIR
> >
> > Paul and all,
> >
> >   To even indicate that an RIR has no authority to address or combat
> > UCE spam is to indirectly support spamers whom are in some instances
> > terrorist intending do disrupt and confuse stakeholders/users is in effect
> > supporting such scourge.  You are either part of the solution or part of
> > the problem.  Hence your remarks and opinion below and I can only
> > accurately conclude that the opinion of ICANN and the NRO are
> > supporters/enablers of UCE Spam and terrorists that are also a part
> > of these swine...
> >
> > Paul Wilson wrote:
> >
> > > Jeff, it seems that you would propose to entrench the digital divide by
> > > punishing all of Africa for alleged crimes of a few Africans.
> > >
> > > You are fully aware I believe that RIRs have never been given authority to
> > > police spam, and therefore have no responsibility whatsoever in that regard.
> > >
> > > As in other region of the world, spamming activity in Africa is a problem;
> > > but it is one which has no bearing whatsoever on the RIR for the region, and
> > > certainly no relevance to the approval of AfriNIC.
> > >
> > > Paul Wilson
> > > APNIC
> > >
> > > Jeff Williams wrote:
> > > > All,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >   Well there went the neiberhood!  Bad decision here.  Given the amount
> > > > of UCE spam coming from Africa and in particular IP addresses from
> > > > african nations, it would be obvious that AFriNIC is not ready for
> > > > prime time yet...
> > > >
> > > > APNIC Secretariat wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>This message is forwarded on behalf of the NRO:
> > > >>
> > > >>---------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >>The Number Resource Organization (NRO) has provided its full support to
> > > >>the emergence of the African Network Information Center (AfriNIC) as a
> > > >>new Regional Internet Registry (RIR).
> > > >>
> > > >>The full text of the announcement is available at:
> > > >>
> > > >>   http://www.nro.net/archive/news/afrinic-2005.html
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Regards,
> > > >>
> > > >>NRO Secretariat
> > > >>
> > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > >>Nro-announce mailing list
> > > >>Nro-announce@xxxxxxx
> > > >>http://www.nro.net/nro-lists/listinfo/nro-announce
> > > >>
> > > >>---------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >>More NRO news is available on the APNIC home page at:
> > > >>
> > > >>   http://www.apnic.net
> > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > >>Apnic-announce mailing list
> > > >>Apnic-announce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/apnic-announce
> > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > >>apnic-talk mailing list
> > > >>apnic-talk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/apnic-talk
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > --
> > > > Jeffrey A. Williams
> > > > Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 134k members/stakeholders strong!)
> > > > "Be precise in the use of words and expect precision from others" -
> > > >     Pierre Abelard
> > > >
> > > > "If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B;
> > > > liability depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
> > > > P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
> > > > United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
> > > > ===============================================================
> > > > Updated 1/26/04
> > > > CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security
> > > > IDNS. div. of Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
> > > > E-Mail jwkckid1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >  Registered Email addr with the USPS
> > > > Contact Number: 214-244-4827
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > apnic-talk mailing list
> > > > apnic-talk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/apnic-talk
> > >
> > > --
> > > ________________________________________________________________________
> > > Paul Wilson, Director-General, APNIC                      <dg@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > http://www.apnic.net                            ph/fx +61 7 3858 3100/99
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > See you at APNIC-19!                     Kyoto, Japan, 21 to 25 Feb 2005
> > >     and APRICOT 2005                        http://www.apnic.net/meetings
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ASIAN TSUNAMI & EARTHQUAKE RELIEF APPEAL        see http://www.apnic.net
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > --
> > Jeffrey A. Williams
> > Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 134k members/stakeholders strong!)
> > "Be precise in the use of words and expect precision from others" -
> >     Pierre Abelard
> >
> > "If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B;
> > liability depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
> > P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
> > United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
> > ===============================================================
> > Updated 1/26/04
> > CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security
> > IDNS. div. of Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
> > E-Mail jwkckid1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >  Registered Email addr with the USPS
> > Contact Number: 214-244-4827
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Jeffrey A. Williams
> Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 134k members/stakeholders strong!)
> "Be precise in the use of words and expect precision from others" -
>     Pierre Abelard
>
> "If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B;
> liability depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
> P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
> United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
> ===============================================================
> Updated 1/26/04
> CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security
> IDNS. div. of Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
> E-Mail jwkckid1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>  Registered Email addr with the USPS
> Contact Number: 214-244-4827

Regards,

--
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 134k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Be precise in the use of words and expect precision from others" -
    Pierre Abelard

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B;
liability depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security
IDNS. div. of Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
E-Mail jwkckid1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
 Registered Email addr with the USPS
Contact Number: 214-244-4827