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[dow1-2tf] WHOIS TF 1/2 Open Call CRISP Transcription 12 January 2005
- To: "12DOW" <dow1-2tf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Subject: [dow1-2tf] WHOIS TF 1/2 Open Call CRISP Transcription 12 January 2005
- From: "GNSO SECRETARIAT" <gnso.secretariat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:11:48 +0100
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- Reply-to: <gnso.secretariat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Sender: owner-dow1-2tf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: dow1-2tf[at]gnso.icann.org]
Please find the transcription of the Whois task force 1 & 2 CRISP open call
held on January 12, 2005 at 11:00 EST 16:00 UTC.
I do apologise for the previous postings where the document was not attached
and then attached in a form that cannot be opened.
If you would like any changes made, please let me know. I have tried to
clean up the transcript, but may have overlooked some things.
The document will be posted on the GNSO website for reference:
http://gnso.icann.org/issues/whois-privacy/index.shtml
Thank you very much.
Kind regards,
Glen de Saint Géry
GNSO Secretariat
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<p align="center"><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><b>WHOIS Task
Forces
1 and 2 Teleconference <br>
CRISP Presentation<br>
12 January, 2005 - Transcription</b></font></p>
<p><b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">ATTENDEES:<br>
</font></b></p>
<p><b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">GNSO Constituency
representatives:<br>
</font></b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> gTLD Registries
constituency:
- Jeff</font><b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></b><font
face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Neuman</font><font face="Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif">-
Co-Chair </font><b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <br>
</font></b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Registrars constituency
- Paul Stahura </font><b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">gTLD Registries
constituency
- David Maher </font><b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Commercial and Business
Users constituency - Marilyn Cade<br>
Intellectual Property Interests Constituency - Steve Metalitz <br>
Intellectual Property Interests Constituency - Niklas Lagergren,<br>
<font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font>Non Commercial Users
Constituency
- Milton Mueller </font> <font face="Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif"></font><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">
</font><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font><font face="Arial,
Helvetica, sans-serif">
<br>
<br>
<br>
<b>Liaisons:</b><br>
At-Large Advisory Committee (ALAC) liaisons - Thomas Roessler<br>
<font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Suzanne Sene - <font face="Arial,
Helvetica, sans-serif">Govenment
Advisory Committee</font></font><br>
<br>
<b>ICANN Staff Manager</b>: Barbara Roseman</font> <font face="Arial,
Helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
<b>GNSO Secretariat:</b> Glen de Saint Géry <br>
<br>
<b>Visitors<br>
</b>Bruce Beckwith<br>
Phil Colebrook - gTLD Registries constituency - GNSO Council<br>
Ken Stubbs - gTLD Registries constituency - GNSO Council<br>
Tim Cole - Registrar Liaison ICANN<br>
Chuck Gomes - Verisign<br>
Maureen Cubbereley - GNSO Council Nominating Committee<br>
Ryan Lehning<br>
Tina Dam - gTLD Registries constituency Liaison ICANN<br>
Tony Holmes - <font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Internet Service and
Connectivity Providers constituency - GNSO Council<br>
Greg Ruth - <font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Internet Service and
Connectivity
Providers constituency - GNSO Counci</font><br>
Hanan Has - Govenment Advisory Committee<br>
<font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Robin Gross - Non Commercial Users
Constituency - GNSO Council<br>
Ed Lewis<br>
Mickey Mouse<br>
Marcus Heyder<br>
Cherian Mathai</font></font></font> - <font face="Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif">Tralliance</font><br>
<font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ron Andruff - Tralliance<br>
Rick Anderson - zip.ca</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font face="Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif"></font></font><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a
href="http://gnso-audio.icann.org/WHOIS-20050112.tf12.mp3">MP3
Recording</a></font><br>
<font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a
href="http://www.gnso.icann.org/issues/whois-privacy/sanz-whois-12jan05.pdf">CRISP
Presentation</a></font> </p>
<p></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
Coordinator All participants are on a listen-only mode. After the
presentation,
we'll conduct a questions and answer session. Today's conference is being
recorded.
If you have objections, you may disconnect at this time. I'll turn the
meeting
over to Mr. Jeff Neuman</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman <br>
I want to welcome everyone to the WhoisTask Force One and Two conference on
the CRISP working group and, more specifically, the IRISh protocol that has
made it to RFC status. We'll wait a couple minutes to make sure everyone is
one. We'll have a presentation by Andrew Newton, Leslie Daigle and Marcos
Sanz
also helped put the presentation together. We'll follow with a question and
answer period.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> For those not on WhoisTask Force
One or Two, we submitted to Andrew and Leslie a list of questions that the
task
force came up with. It was merely meant as a guideline to let them know what
types of topics we were interested in so they could prepare their
presentation.
But my no means is it an exhaustive list of all the questions we had. I'm
sure
there will be other questions from other people on the call. Is Andrew Newton
on the call? Or Leslie Daigle?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator No, not at the
moment.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman Is Marcos on the
call?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz :Yes.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: Since they're not on
the
call yet, are you prepared to go through the presentation until they can
join?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz: I haven't prepared very
well, so wait one minute and I'm sure they'll appear. If in one minute
they're
not here, I'll start.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman<br>
Okay, let's take that minute. We have about 22 people on the call right now.
Marcos, did you want to just go into a bit about the CRISP working group and
background? Do you have the presentation?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz:<br>
Yes, I have it. No problem, I'll start with that.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> It was a long time ago that we
founded
this CRISP working group, more than two years by now. CRISP is an information
service, and one of the main goals was, to be clear, what we wanted to
design.
It had to be a solution for all the problems that currently infested the
nickname
or Whois is very old, more than 20 years. By the time it was designed, the
standards
of the IETF for protocols were not as high as today. So the protocol is very
weak. There are no security considerations, no there are no international
considerations.
This was identified as a problem … had to be addressed and this is the
reason the working group was created.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: I think we have Andrew
now, Marcos.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz: Great.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton : Leslie is here, too.
We were on but you couldn't hear us apparently.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: Marcos filled in the
background
of the group, if you'd continue on.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton <br>
Sure. I'm going to go through the slide deck that was distributed, and you
guys
can interrupt at any point and ask questions. The questions provided to us
are
answered in the slide deck, just not in the same chronological order they
were
at. You might want to be patient with that. But we'll answer all the
questions-interrupt
at any time.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: The way the call is set
up is you do the presentation and then we'll take questions because there are
25 or 30 people on the call.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton <br>
Okay. Page two, the background slide, IETF chartered the CRISP working group
in order to create a new protocol to replace the nickname Whois protocol. The
CRISP working group first, instead of just trying to run off to
implementation
of protocol, we actually a list of requirements that we thought protocol
should
have. Then we had two candidates proposals submitted to the working group.
Then
the group took consensus on which protocol we felt best met the requirements
we set out.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> At the end of the day, IRIS was
selected as the protocol. There was a second based on LDEP called … but
the working group felt that IRIS … candidate came down to ease of
implementation.
IRIS is now a proposed IETF standard, RFC's 3981, 3982 and 3983.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> IRIS is a very flexible
information
access protocol that you can layer multiple registries on top on. The CRISP
has worked on two registry types called D reg and A reg, D for domain and A
for addresses. The D reg registry type handles thick and thin registries and
domain registrars, and the A reg handles what's called the Number Resource
Registries,
RIRs. I should not that, before CRISP came around, in the space, the RIRs and
the domain registries and registrars are actually on completely divergent
tasks
as far as Whois and how they were beginning to handle Who Is. Each set of
constituencies
was placing different controls and things on top of the nick name Whois
protocol
in order to meet certain requirements, and they were not compatible with each
other. CRISP actually is in alignment to try to bring these two back into the
same camp and allow one client to act as both sets of data.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> There is other work going on with
IRIS outside of CRISP. There is E-reg, which is essentially an ENUM registry
for IRIS, which is now a working group item of the ENUM working group within
the IETF.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> In addition, there is new work
beginning
in IETF about emergency context resolutions. Essentially, that is how do you
discover which emergency response center do you send emergency messages to,
based on geographic location. IRIS is being set up as a proposed candidate
for
that problem. There is other work going on the NGN space as well. In order to
have a lot of convergent network technology coming together, they need meta
data access protocols for that.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Page four. What's the value of
IRIS?
It's decentralized by design. It doesn't mean you can't do centralization. It
actually takes decentralization into its core essence. This is done because
the feedback we got when we went around asking people what they wanted and in
the CRISP working group itself, the registrar is really, from what we heard,
waned to keep the data in their own server, they didn't want to send it out
to a centralized spot.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> That also helps in the management
of the data because anytime you data being centralized, there are all sorts
of accuracy issues that suddenly arise that you never had before. So with
decentralization,
we actually have navigation built in, we try to use DNS hierarchies where
possible.
The point of doing this is so you don't have to set up a well known server
which
can be a single point of failure in the system, and typically a political hot
button when you do that. It's also a request many people had.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> So we allowed TLDs to put NAPTR
and SRV pointing to their own servers. So when you do a query, you know that
if I'm looking for something in dot-net, you go look up the NAPTR SRV records
in the dot-net zone, it points to the dot-net IRIS server.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The protocol also contains NC
references
and search continuations. These are ways for a server to point to other data
in other servers. Where an NC reference is an explicit knowledge reference
saying
I know this entity exists in this server, versus a search continuation which
says I think this data is over here or possibly over here, but continue your
search there. When it comes to creating a client, those are two very
important
distinctions that have to be made.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The protocol also uses a thing
called
saffel for … authentication mechanisms, and that allows us to do one
time
passwords or certificates or plain password or whatever. It allows greater
flexibility
and how you do access. Finally, the protocol is structured to allow us to do
internationalization and IDN support more easily than without. We do that
using
XML.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Slide five. What's the cost?
First
off, IRIS is an open standard, published by the IETF as we said. There is no
intellectual property attached to the actual protocol itself. You don't have
to pay royalties to anybody to go implement it. And there is no specific
implementation
necessary because it's an open standard. So anyone is free to come up with
their
own implementation of the protocol as they see fit for their needs. I'll
point
out there are some open source clients … already available.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> If you wanted to implement this
on your own, the protocol was specifically designed to reuse common building
blocks. We use XML for doing the structure and tagging of data. XML is a very
well known serialization format on the Internet. We use … and SRV
resource
records for finding a navigation of data, and also use things like saffel for
common access control mechanisms.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> As for the database, IRIS system
is designed to sit on top of a current registration database. The intent
isn't
to have the database be changed in any way in order to accommodate the
protocol
itself. So there are no database changes at all; it's basically another
protocol
engine that sits on top of the database to get access to it.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> We find that very important
because
the moment you start requiring changes in anyone's registration database,
that
means they require changes in their business process and that can get
expensive
really fast. So IRIS doesn't impose any matrices or tree structures or
anything
that requires back end data changes.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Slide six. The CRISP status so
far
is the CRISP working group has met all the original milestones to create the
requirements document and the core and main registry protocols. Currently,
the
working group is working on the address registry. I expect that to go to the
last call very soon. Recently, we're undertaken new work on this IRIS over
UDP,
which is to make it really fast, and something called V-check with is a
lightweight
domain availability check. That will also probably be the last called pretty
soon.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Page seven. There is other work
going on as well. There has previously been work on putting SRV records into
the zone files of TLDs, so that the Whois client can find the Whois more
easily.
We're actually working on a cohabitation document which discusses how clients
can use that information to find Whois servers and define IRIS servers. So
essentially,
one client could access both Whois data and IRIS data at the same time
because
there is no flag date for transitioning. It will be an eventual, gradual
transition.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Page eight. The current
deployments
that I know about, for com and net, we actually do have a server up and
running,
and this year we plan on adding the UDP support once that gets finalized. In
2005, DeNIC is going to stand up the server, and well as NOMINET and RIPE NCC
is looking at standing up the server as well. I want to point out that with
CEUK com and net, it represents well over 60% of all registered
domains.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Page nine. Navigation of servers
and data, I talked of this briefly. The way IRIS determines-one of the
methods-to
use DNS hierarchies is we allow zone operators to put NAPTR and SRV records
in their zone. At that point, IRIS using that data to find the correct server
to go talk to. This avoids the concept of what's known as a well known server
to the purposes of finding the data, which typically is a political hot
button
in some circles.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> There are other methods of
navigation
of the data. IRIS has a pluggable architecture for doing that, so you can add
other things, resolution methods. Specific to domains, there is a top-down
and
bottom-up resolution method where if you were looking, for example, at
dot-net,
we would start looking in the zone file like dot-net to see where the server
is. If you didn't find it, you go to dot-net.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> For navigation, the protocol also
has query distribution energy references and search continuations. NC
reference
is saying go look here for this data where search continuation is. We'll
continue
your search at this server. This allows registries to point to the same data
in the registrar. So com may point to the example dot-com in the registrars
database. Registrars can …there is a function for the registrant to
point
to stand up servers. There is a pluggable architecture. You can add new
navigation
methods, if needed.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Page ten, tiered access. IRIS has
multiple authentication mechanisms. Authentication is what allows you to do
tiered access, especially strong authentication. So in tiered access, who
controls
what data is actually given back to the client, is done by the server. But
the
authentication allows the server to determine what type of data the user gets
back. You can actually have multiple tiers, it's not just anonymous. You can
have many tiers depending on what the policy dictates.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> You can also coordinate how this
is done. There's a note that you can do this in band; there are mechanisms
within
the IRIS protocol itself to allow servers to coordinate policy and
authentication.
It can be done out of band with some other mechanism or both ways with a
combination.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I put an example at the bottom of
the slide. Basically, you have someone accessing an IRIS server looking for
Mark Costers or Costers.net and they get nothing or they get the fact that
they
know his name and what country he is in. But if they provide the correct
authentication
or credentials, they get the full contact information.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle … that full contact
information is provided in today's Whois server. Andy actually thought that
of the Whoisdata, and there aren't any options in today's Whois server to do
anything other than display all.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton<br>
</font><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Page 11, authentication
distribution.
One of the challenges with tiered access is how you know the right user is
accessing
the right information without overburdening the servers providing that
information.
So IRIS actually has a couple mechanisms within it to make that border far
less
that with typical distributions lists. It doesn't mean you can't do it, the
old ways are still there and possible. There are other methods; one is
digital
certificates. You may not understand, when a client accesses a server data,
the server looks at the digital certificate and says, I don't know who this
is but I know who gave them this cert and based on that information, I can
give
them a level of access to the data. Or the actually certificate since the
data
inside the certificate is signed, they know it's maybe law enforcements,
fellow
registrar They would then give them appropriate access. That's actually
standard
digital certificate technology. IRIS didn't invent any of that.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> There is a thing in IRIS called
relay bag, and what that allows you to do is it allows a server to relay via
the client some authentic data to a reference server so access can be
controlled
at that level, if necessary, where the first server may not have the data,
but
it refers on to the next server. But it is able to authenticate the user and
pass that authentication credential on to the reference server.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The server also has another
extensibility
control, we call them controls, in the protocol themselves. It's just another
mechanism that allows the client to hand the server some extensible piece of
data the server uses to act upon a request. As an example, when we
implemented
the IRIS server for com and net, one thing we wanted was we didn't want the
speed bumping or rate limitations from the Web server to be adversely
effected.
The Web server was actually talking directly to the IRIS server. So when the
Web server makes a request to the IRIS server, it hands it a control that
says,
"Here's the requesting IP address of the person coming to me,"
therefore
the specific IP address cannot get more data via the Web or IRIS server if
they
wanted. They couldn't take out the system, in other words.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Page 12: Again, the IRIS server
is policy neutral. The protocol actually doesn't speak the policy, and that
was one of the mantras of the CRISP working group, which is about creating an
access protocol that didn't require any policy to be made within the protocol
itself. So all sorts of information can be given back in the protocol, or it
can not be given back, or the server can actually tell the client, "I
have
this data but I can't give it to you. In addition, there are other privacy
mechanisms
in there where the server can say, "This specific data is sensitive and
you are not allowed to redistribute it. Things like that.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The information within IRIS can
be centralized in one central IRIS server. It's a typically easy thing to do.
The service was designed for decentralization so you can have it distributed.
Or it can be centrally indexed and then distributed, so you could have an
index
server that has an index of the data but not the actual data itself, but
points
to the place that does. This is all a matter of policy. The protocol itself
is policy neutral. This give policy makers a lot more options in order to
make
policy for the situations they're determining. </font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Page 13. The protocol is well
structured.
It allows you better server performance because in many cases …
sometimes
the client doesn't have a lot of knowledge about what the request is, so the
servers have to guess at the request in many cases, not all. What the
structure
does and what … queries is it allows the client to be very formal about
what it's requesting. Therefore, this is not only ambiguity on the client
side,
but the server then doesn't have to go hunting through multiple database
indexes
to find the data; it knows exactly what the client is requesting.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Provides structure, normalized
data,
this does two things. It enables localization of the internationalized
protocol
elements, and I'll show you an example in a minute. It also provides for
richer
client presentation, so the client no longer has to be very similar to only
text out, but we have a graphable user interface that we've developed here.
But if it wanted to also be in Brail, whatever the end user needs … we
can do that.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The relationship to the query is
clearly noted. Because all the data is normalized, each entity is well tagged
in what the entity is. The relationship is clearly noted, and the
relationship
to whether it's a direct answer to the query or some sort of ancillary data
is also noted in the protocol.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> When you combine the well
structured
data of the queries and responses with strong authentication, this enables
you
to have very good audit trails, if the implementer wants to do that. The
other
side effect is, because the data is highly normalized and the queries are
well
known, these audit trails can be meaningful to third parties, if
necessary.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Page 14. We talk about structure
and internationalization, the way this works is what the content of the data
is under the control of the server. So the server dictates whether to hand
back
the address or not, or the postal code of the user or whatever the
information
is. The actual presentation of the data, though, can be determined by the
client.
This allows for localization of tags within the protocol itself. So we have
here a picture of our graphical user clients. You'll notice a lot of the
menus
and other things are not in English but French. This allows a French user to
more easily look at this data and be able to figure out what's going on. When
they click on something like the verisign-atlas.net, it opens another window.
Instead of saying domain name it says the French equivalent. </font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> You'll see that on slide 15.
Here's
a close look at the data. On one side we have English, one side French. This
more easily gives the end user access to the information, especially if they
are a non-English speaker.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle<br>
I want to really underscore that point about the presentation of the data
being
localizable. It's certainly not all that tricky a job to provide localization
within interfaces for clients. But the fact is, the data is structured and
machine
parcable makes it fairly straightforward to also apply that localization to
the data itself.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton Yes. <br>
Slide 16, there are some questions about extensibility. IRIS is a layered
protocol-we
have clearly defined layers within the protocol, and extensibility mechanisms
built in to each layer. There is an application transport layer so we can
have
multiple application transports to meet the needs. The current ones defined
in Core is beep, but we're also working on a UDP version because we did some
analysis and determined, both in the domain and address case, 90% of all
queries
are for single entities such as domain names or single IP address, map to a
network. Those answer can typically be small enough to fit into one UDP
packet.
If you take this transaction off the TCP, TCP by itself no matter what has a
three packet handshake, and all other sliding window stuff to keep the data
going. So even at the transport level, it's three times slower than UDP, so
UDP would actually make it three times faster once we switch off to that.
This
also allows us to say in certain cases we need to use UDP and certain places
we need to use TCP and so forth.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Then we have the common registry,
which is essentially the IRIS core layer which describes how you talk about
entities and searches, then we have the registry specific stuff. So we have
the main and address registries. And you can have data from one registry
point
to data in another registry type, but this stops you from complaining the
different
types of data.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Also, this allows reuse of these
common components. All of these things are common components on the Internet.
They're easy to find, so people can implement this protocol really easily and
allows us to switch them out when necessary for newer, faster things or
different
use cases that may come up.</font></p>
<h4><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Some of these common
components
are things like XML, NAPTR and SRV records and SASL 4 which is an
authentication
framework for doing different types of authentication.</b></font></h4>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Slide 17. In conclusion, the IRIS
… are standardized, but the basis of what we set out to do is done.
We're
currently working on improvements in other areas, like the address
registries.
We're working on the UDP and lightweight availability check. There are …
for other registries like e-mail.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The benefits are that it's
decentralized,
it has navigation as part of that decentralized and distributed manner so
even
though it's decentralized, you can easily find the data. Better policy
support,
via multiple authentication because one of the things that plagues the
current
court 43 is the fact that the only method people use for authentication right
now is IP addresses, and that works for certain things but it doesn't take
you
that far.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> And of course structure and
internationalization.
The structure gives us better performance and easier to understand, less
ambiguous
queries and answers, also allows for internationalization and better IDN
support.
Of course, it's extensible because there will be future needs down the road
that we haven't anticipated but we want to be able to take advantage of
extending
the protocol for those needs.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The protocol itself is low cost.
It's not intended to replace or change anyone's database. It's just intended
to sit on top of the current database, much like the port 43 engines are
today.
It has many authorization management features built into it so that doing
distribution
of authorization keys or management is much easier and far less burdensome
than
some would think. I'd like to point out that there are open sourced clients
and servers already available of this protocol.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Last slide, 18. For follow up,
here
are Marcos, Leslie and my e-mail addresses. If you have any questions or
concerns
that haven't been answered, you can e-mail any of us and we'll be happy to
answer
that. Or you can go to the Chris Burton group and send e-mail to them as well
and get an answer there. Jeff?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: Thanks a lot.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator We'll now begin the
question
and answer session. The first question is from Marilyn Cade.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade: <br>
I want to thank all of you for putting the presentation together, and to Andy
and Leslie, has it been two or three years since I've been in your
presentations
and each time I learn something valuable. Thank you so much.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Most or many of the people
interested
in this topic, particularly from the task force perspective, are
non-technical.
I think you may have questions coming that seem very simple to those of you
that are technical, but challenge those of us who are not. I just have a
couple
of clarifications that I didn't understand.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> On the one hand, we say that IRIS
is waiting adoption, yet we see there are existing deployments. Could you
explain
where - and I've looked at the list of registries that are adopting - but I
don't understand yet what an option by the rest of the registries would mean,
or what it would mean if not all registries adopted.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle <br>
As part of a clarification of Andy's slide on adoption, because this is not
adopter, not a requirement for providing who his service is for TLDs at this
point, registries that are standing up servers for these are essentially
standing
up prototypes or test cases over their data. Those services are publicly
available,
that's why Andy was pointing at the one running at Verisign Lab. They're
available
for exploring the potential of this protocol. But the expectation is that any
operationally and formally deployed system would have to meet whatever
requirements
are determined by ICANN for the provision of Whois services going
forward.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> That was a complicated way of
saying
that yes, servers are being stood up for individual registries much in the
same
way one can stand up any other kind of service for the data. But there is no
claim that these are the replacement for Whois servers at this time because
Whois still formally defined as a way to provide registrant
information.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Part two of your question was
what
happens when only some people are playing. To that point, the issue is, in
the
same way that the current Whois service is somewhat … really an island
in deployment in that every registry has slightly different implementations
of how they present Whois information. There is the danger that, with
piecemeal
deployment of IRIS servers, there is still some level of islands of data
available,
but not the whole space. The only solution to that is to develop what the
deployment
policy is for registries and registrars.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade The task force does not
have
consensus option on what the data should be displayed or not. Are the present
prototype deployments restricting access to data? Or are they examining other
ways of presenting data?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton I can speak to the one
at Verisan Labs. We do restrict the data for data mining purposes. What would
take someone a year to actually go through all the data, a certain query but
I can't remember, it's a pretty high number to hit. In fact, on our
Whoisservers,
we don't actually see those type of query rates.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Once you stand up the servers
themselves,
that allows the clients to start playing around with how they want to see the
data to begin with, and that's the important thing. So the intent of our
current
server is to allow clients to access the data and to be able to see what they
need to with that data in a highly structured manner.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade Who would you define as
the
client in this case?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton We have two methods of
access. We have the IRIS court access, which is what's defined in the
national
protocol spec. So someone can go download an IRIS client, the client
software,
and they can access it. There are two pieces of client software available,
one
is written in Pearl and one in JAVA. They can go access this data.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The other way is we have a Web
interface.
Our Web site talks to the IRIS server, that way they don't have to actually
go download a client. This allows them to get to the data via Web interface.
If you go to the Web site, which is IRIS.verisanlabs.com, we play around with
how that data should look to users, etc. Because it's not unstructured,
textured
data, we can do that.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade I'm sorry, my question
wasn't
clear. When I use the term client, as a consultant, I mean the people I'm
working
for. I should have asked what kind of users are accessing the data, by
category.
Law firms? Registrars? Law enforcement? Business organizations? Do you
know?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton We don't know because we
haven't placed any strong authentication on the server at present. One reason
we haven't is, first off, we don't want to step on anyone's toes, especially
the ICANN Whois task force. So we're waiting to see what you come up with in
that regard. In addition, we're only a thin registry for com and net at the
moment. We're not sure how much information we have is all that interesting
to some users. We are looking at what we can do, what makes sense, as far as
restriction of the data and data access to certain clients. But we don't
know,
at present, who they are.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle So it's not the case
that
we've been directly targeting … customer segments and saying,
"Here's
a new service you should go and use." It's more a case that you put the
server up because, as you know, this whole process is … Having defined
the protocol, it's now important to actually put it up where people can
actually
work with it, … can go and play with it and get a sense of "Aha, so
this is what's feasible technically." Get a sense of what the range of
possibilities are to help inform the range …</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade My next question has to do
with the statement you made that authorization is easier and less burdensome
than some people think. The two areas that I saw suggested as forms of
authentication
did not seem to take into account the developing country issue where
certificate
authorities are, and the use of credit cards, it's very different than it is
in the developed world. Are we assuming that authentication will be possible,
but we're not assuming it will be mandatory unless there is a policy
recommendation.
Is that right?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton <br>
Yes, that's accurate. The protocol has no assumptions about who gets what
access
to what data. That's all a policy decision. With regards to certificate
authorities,
don't think of commercial certificate authorities such as Verisign. You can
definitely do that with a commercial certificate authority, it doesn't
necessarily
have to be. So the U.S. government has its own certificate authorities that
it has, and those can be used, as well as the certificate authorities of any
government or organization. It doesn't have to be a commercial entity. I also
want to note that a particular server can use multiple certificate
authorities.
</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator The next question
comes
from Maureen Cubberley.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cubberley Marilyn, thanks for
introducing the questions that way. I have the same view, that some technical
things may be complex, but they seem to flow into some fundamental questions.
I'd like to ask a question about slides ten and eleven where we're talking
about
the tiered access and authentication distribution. When we talk about the
multi
type authentication methods, does IRIS draw a line between the categories of
viewable information, the types of viewable information that exists? How
customizable
is that?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz<br>
That's not … a protocol issue. That's more the policy you have developed
for the registry. You just have to implement it. IRIS supports for it, so
it's
not that IRIS says that there is going to be four or five levels or access or
this number of information categories, this is something that you can
implement
locally. IRIS allows for communicating that maybe you are not allowed to
access
this kind of information at that authorization level you are using at the
moment.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cubberely: So it's infinitely
customizable. Right?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz: Right.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator No further
questions.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: I think you said
something
about the fact that response times shouldn't be effected by layering the IRIS
protocol on top.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: No, it shouldn't
be.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: That's true whether
it's
a thick or thin registry?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton : It's better for a
thick
registry. It helps in both situation, but a thin registry doesn't have as
many
indices to look across as a thick registry. Therefore, because the queries
are
well structured and a lookup is defined as hitting one index, so in a thick
registry you'd probably get better performance.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz <br>
Maybe somebody is thinking that, because of this whole graphical presentation
level, that this implies that there is lots of data being transmitted.
Obviously,
everything has to be much slower. This is not true. I want to say that
clearly.
This graphical thing Andy presented, there is something that it's running on
the client. So the amount of data being transmitted over the net, it's very
small. It's admittedly more transmitted by the Whois protocol. There is a
slight
overhead, but this overhead doesn't account for a bigger delay in response
times
when compared with factors that are much more important, like the actual
speed
of your relational database on the server or how far away you are physically
located from the server. So this overhead that IRIS carries is not relevant
to the response times, not practically relevant.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton <br>
Most of the latency that comes with a Whois query or an IRIS query is
basically
transit time of the packets and the actual data lookup inside the database.
The actual marshalling of the data is usually pretty small compared to the
time
it takes to do the other things. Even though we've finished the core work,
we're
still looking at ways to make this even better. So something we're doing is
this UDP work where we're trying to offload what we statistically found are
90% of all our queries into the UDP space. So at the network level, it
becomes
three times faster. It doesn't mean your database is going to be any faster,
but if the network level becomes three times faster and the load on a server,
UDP is much less.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> You can look at a DNS server,
which
actually handles much more load for CPUs than a Web server. The reason is the
vast majority of their traffic is … Those are the things we're still
refining.
We're even talking about a more refined TCP transport, but that's work we're
just now looking into. So there would be no reason why you couldn't meet your
current SLAs you have now. In the future, this protocol will be even
faster.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator There's a question
from
Marilyn Cade.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade I have a number of
questions.
It may spark questions from others. A couple things come to mind. We opened
the conversation by saying that the existing nick names Whois protocol was
developed
many years ago. We all know we've learned a lot, and that in fact, the
Internet
has changed a great deal since then. So if IRIS were implemented today, if
there
were a consensus policy, for instance, that supported the implementation of
IRIS-and I'm speaking hypothetically-if it were implemented today with full
display of all data that is gathered, what exists in IRIS that will help with
the accuracy problem, which is a serious problem in today's Whois.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Secondly, what exists or could
exist
with the implementation of IRIS that would allow the discrimination between
category of registrant? For instance, in a dot-post, which is announced by
ICANN
staff as being under negotiation or their authority and post, as I recall
from
their application provides something equivalent to a post office box where
they
gather accurate data such that accurate data is not displayed. But in another
TLD, there might be a different kind of category of use, like a user who says
I'm an individual and I've authenticated, does IRIS allow us to discriminate
in the display of data between different categories of users?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> My next question has to do with
trying to understand the cost and burden on registries and registrars of
moving
in this direction, and whether there is a transitional period or cost
anytime,
as I know from having run a business, anytime you adopt a new software or new
means of doing something, you have a number of both hard and soft costs,
including
training of your people. What are the cost areas we should be thinking about
if we were to move forward in this direction?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton <br>
I'll try to attack the accuracy question. First off, IRIS is only an access
protocol, not a provisioning protocol. So most of the accuracy comes in on
the
provisioning side, not the access side. You could potentially sign the data
coming out of the IRIS server so you'd know it was authentic, but that's one
thing.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The big answer to that is that
people
will be much more willing to make sure their data is accurate, or be much
less
apprehensive about providing accurate data if they didn't think it would be
shown to everyone on the planet.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle: I think that's right,
and it does somewhat lead into the second question about distinction
categories
of users. The point with allowing signing of data, etc, from a display
perspective,
you can make the distinction between types of data and types of users. It
becomes
a question of deployment realities, whether that is useful or not.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade: Andy, I've noted your
comment,
and Leslie's support, for your personal view that people will be more willing
to provide accurate data, or less apprehensive, if not shown to everyone on
this planet. I think that the task force doesn't have a consensus view on
that.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle: What we're saying is
that
is the limit and extent to which IRIS supports a solution in the accuracy
problem.
We recognize there is a much larger issue about detecting and ensuring
accuracy
of data, and that's beyond the scope of IRIS.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: Marilyn, can we see if
there is anyone else in the queue?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade: We can, but I just want
them to pursue, since the task force doesn't have the consistency on that
particular
force, and I understand that IRIS isn't the answer to accuracy. Are there
other
steps that could be taken or other activities underway that could effect the
accuracy problem, leaving aside the display issue, but could address the
accuracy
problem?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton:<br>
I don't think those are protocol problems; I'm actually not sure if they are
technological problems. Sounds more like a social issue. Technology can help
with the problem, but will not solve the problem. Most of it is on the
provisioning
side, so if it's not within the EPP protocol, then it would actually be
within
the EPP implementations themselves that would have to do some accuracy
checking,
etc. It may actually just be people who do the checking. I know what we do at
Verisign on the certificate authority side, even though I don't work for that
division. They actually have humans in the loop because you can't get
computers
to do it.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle: The answer is that all
technology can do is help to accurately convey the level of confidence in the
accuracy of the data. You can convey that the registry/registrar believes
this
data to be accurate, that's all you can do.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade Can you go on to address
my last question which was more about what you … different areas of
cost.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz:<br>
About costs, I think that Andy already addressed this in the presentation.
There
are no IPR's software which is for downloading out there. It's open source so
you really can check what you are running on your machines. The only excuse
I could find from somebody to implement it is this initial investment that
you
always need when you have to deploy something new. You have to get along with
it and learn something. We are always a bit lazy when we have to learn
something
new. This is the only … I could find to start implementing something
like
that. On the other hand, we've already seen the list of advantages. I really
think the advantages are worth it.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle <br>
I think some of the cost incurred is going to be in changing whatever
business
practices to meet the policies that are agreed on. That's nothing to do with
IRIS. What I mean is, if there is a policy to move to, accepting distinctions
between categories of users, etc, then registries and registrars are going to
have to look at how they categorize users and make sure that all their data
systems support that. That is nothing to do with an IRIS deployment. It's
just
a change in the Whois service question.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade <br>
That's very helpful. I think you said this, Andy, but I just want to verify
it. Hypothetically, let's say that we have a tiered approach and it would be
possible, if the implementation supported this, for certain categories of
users
to say I wish to have all data displayed and other categories to say I don't
want data displayed.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton <br>
Yes, that's correct. It's whatever, whoever is setting policy, ICANN, the
Whois
task force or whoever that says law enforcement … this data item, this
data item and this data item, whereas registrars get to see everything. I
can't
even begin to speculate what that would be. But it is a matter of policy
only.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle: It is the case also
that
an individual user can say I'm willing to have my address shown publicly, or
no I'm not.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade: Good answer, both were
helpful.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: Operator, anyone else
in the queue?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator Next question from
Mickey
Mouse.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: I suppose that was
probably
not a serious one.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator It was someone who
refused
to give their name, sir. In that case, we'll take the next question from Ryan
Lehning.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">S. Metalitz: This is Steve
Metalitz
with Ryan. A follow up question to one or two of Marilyn's questions. When
you
say it's not a provisioning protocol, it doesn't effect then what goes into
the Whoisdatabase. It's just a questions of what comes out in response to a
query. Is that right?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: Correct.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">S. Metalitz: In that case, the
question
about different registrants specifying different data to be made available,
that does require categorizing registrants. I'm not clear on how IRIS helps
with that. You'd have to distinguish between a registrant who says all my
data
can be available, as opposed to a registrant who says let's assume the policy
allowed none of my data available.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle: That's true that that
distinction has to be made within the database, but the issue is what will
happen
is, when an IRIS query comes in and it's made to the database, the data
either
is provided to as part of the response, or it is not. Inbound on the query is
also an indication as to whether or not this is a general anonymous question,
or whether there was any level of authentication and credentials
available.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">S. Metalitz: I understand it can
distinguish between Whois requestors. In terms of distinguishing among domain
name registrants, just to take the domain name side of this, it doesn't do
that.
There has to be a distinction in there that it will …</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle: The distinction must be
captured in the data held by the registry/registrar.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: EPP does that, has
those
type of capabilities already in it. So registrar's can tell the registry the
desire of the registrant.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: It's got that in the
protocol
that the EPP want to and the registries are in the process of implementing
it,
but most registries at this point on the policy side, don't activate those
privacy
flags yet.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: That's a good point
that
again, here is something that the protocol provides that policy has not
stated
as needed or even has maybe overridden in some cases. So the registrants
could
be saying I don't want any of my data showing, it's just not a policy
decision
that's allowed to be made. Essentially, the example that a registrant has
said,
"I don't want any of my data to be shown to anybody ever except for
me,"
and a law enforcement person comes into an IRIS server and authenticates, as
law enforcement, it doesn't matter what the registrant asks for. The policy
is that the law enforcement gets to see the data. Or it could be that they
don't.
It's all a matter of policy.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">S. Metalitz: To the extend that
there
is a differentiation, given holding the requestor constant to the extent that
there is a differentiation in what's returned from the query based on
characteristics
for desires of a registrant, IRIS does not have that capability. That would
have to be an EPP capability that's used, or else that protocol would have to
be adapted to provide that capability, right?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle: We're having a problem
with terminology. I think the right answer to convey what you want to hear is
yes, but I'm not comfortable saying that IRIS doesn't have the capability in
distinguishing between users because I believe it does.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">S. Metalitz: It does, if that
distinction
is already there in the database.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle: Right. There would be
no way for IRIS to fabricate or interpolate what the registrant's desires
were.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator The next question
comes
from Paul Stahura.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">P. Stahura: I'm worried about
people
who have the correct authentication getting the data and then distributing it
to people who don't have the correct authentication. It's a policy thing. I'm
wondering if IRIS can help. Let's say we had a policy that said people with
dis-authentication could only keep the data for 24 hours … Can IRIS help
us there?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz: I'm sorry to say I don't
think IRIS can help because once the data has been delivered, there is no
real
way to track what is happening with this data and for how long the data will
be kept at the other side.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: That requires
proprietary
software to accomplish that. It's really hard to watermark data in such a way
that people don't notice, but this is all textural data which is much harder
to watermark. On top of that, if you want to do something similar to DRM like
what ICANN does, that is proprietary software and that's exactly how they
accomplish
that task. You can't really say we're going to have an open standard, and
then
require everyone to get a certain piece of software.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> P. Stahura: I understand that if
somebody is not following the protocol, they could ignore. Let's say there
was
… to live on this piece of data, they could ignore that but then they
would
be breaking the protocol …</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle The issue is that
they're
breaking the policy. What you need is mechanisms for detecting if there are
continuous … doing that. For instance, if there is a registry client
that
has signed an agreement not to do that and they're repeatedly doing it, there
should be the ability to turn around and revoke their rights.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> To follow on Andy's ICANN's
example,
I don't know how many people are familiar with that software and service.
Apart
from the fact that it's proprietary software, two important aspects need to
be understood about how it achieves the control of the digital material. It
not only requires their specific software, it also means their software has
to anticipate what our appropriate and likely use case is. Those are the ones
supported for all users across the globe. That's not the sort of thing that
we've seen as being applicable for Whois. Marilyn mentioned some ways in
which
different regions of the world are different in terms of their needs and
abilities.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I'd also observe in the case of
ICANN, since this is music which is very popular, it wasn't that long before
they started to use software which ripped … controls out of the data.
Then
you're right back to square one. If it was of sufficient interest to people
to do that here, exactly the same thing would happen.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: If you want a short
answer,
yes, you can put a TTL on the data if you really wanted to. I don't know if
that's what you were getting at, but you can put a time to live on there and
if someone violates it, they're a bad actor.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle: You can provide
mechanisms;
you can't provide enforcement.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">P. Stahura I'm just wondering, if
it was in the protocol at all. I understand that if somebody breaks a policy
of ignoring the TTL or if the policy was in contract with the people getting
the information to say you can't store it or pass it on, I see that. They
can't
help us because we're not implementing some kind of visitor right management
thing, and we would need a proprietary client, … on the front end, to
enforce
all that. I see that. But if it had a TTL, people who got the "standard
reference clients" would at least have that. Then they'd have to build
their own client if they want to violate that TTL.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: You can put in those
types
of policies, if you want. If you go to the com net IRIS server, you can see
where we have stuck in that you're not allowed to use the data for spamming.
It's not going to stop anyone from using it for that, but we have that in
there
where we put the notice. You can't use it for spamming, so we've given them
the notice. If they do it, they're in violation.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">P. Stahura: I see that. But if you
had a TTL, then your Web based clients would not be able to store the
information
if you complied with the spec. Right?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: If you're asking
specifically
if there is TTL in the actual current dereg spec, no there is not. Could one
be added very easily? Very, very easily. I can do it in about two minutes.
But
I want to point out that this is textual data. Someone could easily cut and
paste it and it wouldn't even require implementation of the client to do it.
Then off they go.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz: This is why I said at the
beginning that it's not feasible.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator We're showing no more
questions.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: Okay, a follow up on
the
audit trail comment. You talked in the presentation. Would this make it
possible
for the server to collect information about the requestor of the information
and distribute that information out to the registrant?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: Yes. I want to be
explicit
about this. Audit trail is actually not a function on the protocol, it's a
function
of the implementation of the protocol. You do have the benefit of the fact
that,
because the data is highly normalized, it's well understood what was accessed
and by whom. When you use strong authentication, you can say here is the
actual
serial number of the certificate or the user ID of the person who came and
got
this data. And they got this specific piece of data, they didn't just query.
They entered this and got a bunch of data back. So the audit trail would then
be meaningful to a registrant or any third party.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle And if you were serving
up data with only on access, then you could provide information in terms of
the number of accesses to the data.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz: And since the queries are
much more structured, you can really categorize, and have the refined
granulated
policies in the sense of … person is only allowed to make ten queries
regarding
person data per minute, but he's allowed to make 100 queries regarding domain
data per minute. Because you really know what the person is querying so you
have very fine granulation of it.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton Also, there is a
particular
type of … access mechanism called one time passwords. It's basically a
cryptographic password solution where a password is only good a certain
number
of times. So you issue the password, it can only be used a certain number of
times before cryptographically it can no longer be used again. So not even an
accountant administrator could up the number or whatever. Once the password
it is handed out, it can only be used a finite number of times for
access.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz: In the case of
certificates,
this is much more extreme. Even if you were able to keep track of old data
that
the client has sent to the server, there is no way for the server to
impersonate
the client.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: Okay.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator We have a follow up
question
from Marilyn Cade.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade: Jeff, have you gone
through
the questions that were submitted? Because you just asked one I know had not
been asked. Is that what you were going to do next?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: That's what I'm going
through now.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade: Okay, because I wanted to
ask a follow up question in line to what we were just talking about and
consistent
with the questions that we're going through. On the ability to identify who
has submitted the request to gather data on the type of request that's being
asked, whether it's just availability of domain name or actually information
about contact, etc, is there any mechanism in IRIS that would, when incorrect
data is identified, flag that? Of if fields are left blank, it's possible to
print out a report showing that a certain percent of the data that is being
input by the registrant is being left blank, those kinds of reporting
statistics?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz: How do you mean block
that,
not being deliberate to the client?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade: You're right because this
is an overlay to the underlying database.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz: It's just about
delivering,
not entering the data. Obviously, the implementation you have, you can keep
track whenever you are answering and query whether you found not well formed
data in your database. That's possible. But I think that's too late. You are
just realizing you have something inaccurate or not well formed, you should
have checked that before entering it into the database. Does this answer your
question?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade: I don't think so, but it
was helpful in any case. I'm learning more. Let me refine my question. One
thing
that the registrars are responsible for is, upon being notified that there is
inaccurate data, they need to take steps to notify the registrant of the
registrant's
responsibility to correct that data.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz: I see. It's much easier
with this protocol to identify inaccurate data in the sense that the protocol
is much more structured than Whois was so, now, you have very well defined
fields.
Here you have to have a telephone number and it has to have to have this
format
otherwise it's wrong. The protocol itself provides this information, XML
information,
so it's really easy for a registrar to check their results coming against a
pre-defined format and get aware whether the data is fulfilling the rules
defined
in the schema.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade: That's what I was looking
for was the reporting …</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator No more questions at
this time.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jeff Neuman: One other question I
had was on the Whois servers. Is there is an IRIS server run by the registry,
it would be that individual server that defines what the output is,
correct?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: Ultimately, yes. So
let's
say that ICANN says there is a policy that certain classes of users see
certain
types of data, but the decision is ultimately the server operator can make
who
sends that to the client. If they didn't do what ICANN is asking them to do,
then they are in violation of ICANN policy. But you're right. However,
because
the data is well structured, it's easy to figure out when they're not
conforming
with policy.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: One more question on
data
structure. Although you initially talked about the cost being pretty low, are
there costs imposed on the operators for existing names to put all that data
in the format that's specified by IRIS?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton No, the intent is that
you don't have to restructure your database or do anything to it. You're just
accessing the database in the same way that the current Whoisservers are
doing
it. We actually spent some time on this in the CRISP working group, wanting
to make sure the protocol itself didn't require any type of reorganization of
indexes or anything like that. We felt if that occurred, suddenly this is too
burdensome to implement.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle: I would refine that
slightly
and say the cost essentially is in a software that does the translation, the
mapping between your existing software and providing data in the IRIS
protocol.
It doesn't have to be a flat out conversion of data and databases or the
backend
software tools. The other thing I would say is, to the extend that there are
changes needed in that backend database, it's going to be required to support
policy changes, is not a software question.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: So it will be the
translator
that registry, let's just take a phone number, for example, some registries
start the country code with a plus sign versus just having the number out
there
without the plus sign, some have it separated by periods and some might use
hyphens. You're just talking there would be a conversion software that would
convert it - it wouldn't make any changes in database - but convert it so
when
it's displayed.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle Right. Whereas, if there
are policy changes about only display the first five telephone numbers of
telephone
numbers for people whose last name starts with D, that's something that would
be needed whether you're using IRIS access or Whois</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman Okay. That answers all
the questions I have in the form we gave you.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator The next question
comes
from Steve Metalitz.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">S. Metalitz: It's a follow up on
the same point. This goes to the question of the accuracy of the data in the
database. I thought I heard the statement that the accuracy would be improved
because the fields are well defined. Let me take an example. Let's say the
phone
number listed is 1-2-3, which we know is inaccurate. Can anyone explain how
IRIS would help you determine that this was inaccurate?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle: On the outside, in
terms
of a client looking in as opposed to the provisioner, the issue is that you
understand that this is asserted to be the phone number as opposed to
wondering
whether this was a fragment of, for instance, a zip code.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">S. Metalitz: So as the
Whoisrequestor,
I would have a higher degree of confidence than today that this is really the
phone number listed in the database.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle: You understand the
assertion
that this is the phone number.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz: It's not that you have a
higher confidence that this is the phone number listed in the database. You
can have the absolute confidence that this is the data listed as delivered by
the server. The point is, this is not the definition of accuracy. It depends
on the definition of accuracy that you're using. Do you have accuracy if you
interpret this is the data delivered by the server. But 1-2-3 is obviously
not
a valid phone number.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ryan Lehning: This is Ryan. Can
you
have confidence that that was what the registrant entered as the
number?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz: You can only have the
confidence
that that is the data that the registry is delivering you. If you tracked the
registry-</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: That goes back to a
disconnect
in the terminology. When I hear the question about accuracy, I think of the
provisioning side. But the questions you've been asking is accuracy in how
the
client understands the structure of the data. But as to what's in the
database,
that's more of a provisioning instrument that must be undertaken. I think
ultimately,
there are technologies to help and to detect inaccuracies, but there are not
technologies to make it accurate.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">S. Metalitz: My other question was
the audit trail question. It was stated that this is not a function of the
protocol
but of implementation. So our questions about if there is a record of the
query,
where is it stored and who has access to it. Those are questions that would
be decided by the implementation of the protocol. The implementation could
say
you only have access to it if you present a court order, or it could say the
registrar has access to this for marketing purposes. It could say
anything.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle Right.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator The next question is
from Maureen Cubberley.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cubberley: On an entirely
different
topic, one of the earlier questions was what does this mean if not all
registries
adopt it. You do have an item in your presentation about port 43
cohabitation.
What are the main issues you're working on in order to enable both IRIS and
those registries to chose to stay with what they've got with port 43? What
are
the issues around compatibility and insuring that it is a closed running
system
and the access protocol you described is complimentary, if not supportive, to
what's already happening with those registries that stick with port
43.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: Port 43 is not all that
complicated of a protocol. You could write a Whoisclient in about five or ten
minutes. Putting that functionality into an IRIS client is really not that
difficult.
The thing is that the end user sitting at the IRIS client doesn't get the
IRIS
benefit of accessing Whoisdata over at port 43. When we talk about
cohabitation,
it's a way of allowing the navigation elements within IRIS to actually be
back
quartered to port 43, so you can find the correct Whoisserver. You still
don't
have query distribution and some of the other nicer things built on the IRIS,
but at least you can do that. You would have one piece of software that could
talk to the Whoisservers, and one to talk to the IRIS servers. You don't get
all the IRIS functionality out of port 43, but it means you don't have to do
through different ways of getting that data.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cubberley: So one query will go
to where ever. There's not a hierarchy of ranking how it's
accessed?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle: There is the ability to
express preference, naturally that would be towards IRIS servers because the
truth is it's IRIS clients who will be making use of this. Whois clients
don't
have notion of this idea of co-habitation or anything else. But it is, at
least,
a mechanism for bringing the Whois servers into the fold to the navigation
side
of what IRIS provides. You get to that point, and there is a hand painted
arrow
pointed down a pot-holed bouldered dirt road. Go down there at your peril,
but
there it is.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator Next question is from
Marilyn Cade.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade: We could have skipped
past
something you said earlier that is actually very important to ISPs and big
infrastructure
providers. That is and to business users themselves. We rely on not only the
DNS Whois but also the Whois maintained by the RIRs. You mentioned one thing
IRIS does is bring together a form of consistency across those two
"Whoises".
Could you elaborate on what the stat is with the RIRs and what's going on to
the extent you know it?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: All four RIRs are
current
participants to the CRISP working group. One of the co-chairs of the CRISP
working
group is George Michelson, Whoisthe CTO of APNIC. The RIPE NCC is doing a lot
of work in this area in getting Gunders and Shane Curd have actually are now
owners of the draft that talks about how the address registries are to be
structured
over IRIS. In fact, we believe that we'll go to last call pretty soon in the
CRISP working group. They worked pretty strenuously to get this right. We
have
engaged with ARIN and LACNIC and … as well. ARIN is very involved as
well.
</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> A lot of what was going on there
is coordination between the RIRs and the different data models. Between the
four, RIRs there are three different types of data models three differnt
types
of registries. A lot of that was making sure we got it right, and I believe
we do now. We started it a year ago, it seems, and so ARIN and APNIC and RIPR
NIC are all talking, and they represent each other within the CRISP working
group. We're not going ahead with what we're calling A-reg.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade: I'm sorry, ARIN?
APNIC</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: … LACNIC which is
Latin America and RIPE NCC.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Cade: The provisional AFRINIC
is participating or not yet?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle: We haven't seen any
evidence
of them, but my suspicion is … because they've got more primary things
on their minds.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: A lot of how things
work
in the RIR space, I don't want to speak for them but I'll say what I've
observed,
the RIPE NCC has software they developed, and it's reused by the other RIRs.
What happens is once the RIPE NCC has done it, the others will take it on.
This
is extremely true with the Whois servers, run by APNICare the ones that write
distribute. This is true of what the call the NIRs, as well.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz: I wanted to confirm that
is the behavior I observe, as well.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator Next question from
Chuck
Gomes.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">C. Gomes: Several times, it's been
stated that the provision or data is the registry. I'm assuming that, because
of the distributed nature of IRIS, that the provisioner of the data could
actually
be a registrar. Then you don't have the duplication of both registry and
registrar
being authoritative for the data, while at the same time the registry would
be the provider of the IRIS Whois service. Is that correct? </font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: I don't understand the
question, Chuck.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">C. Gomes: Several people said the
data is coming from registry in every case. That could just as well be a
registrar
instead. Is that correct?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: Yes. When I say
registry,
I'm actually meaning a generic versus a thick/thin domain registry or
registrar.
A registrar is a type of registry. I'm sorry if I was inaccurate.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator Next question from
Paul
Stahura</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">P. Stahura In your slide, you said
registrars may point registrants, and registries may point registrars. I
understand
that. What if some of the information is contained in the registry for a
particular
query, and some of it as at the registrar? I assume there is a provision for
replying with some information from the registry, some from the
registrar?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: It really is all in how
the client wishes to present that data to the end user. The important part of
the server side is the server knows how to properly say here is the domain
information
I have, and by the way, I know registrar X has this domain information as
well.
You may go access it over there. How the client wishes to present that is
really
a presentation style of the client. I've got certain theories on how best a
client would do that which I've tried to implement with our GUI work, I know
others have talked of other ways of doing it. But the client software can
access
the data in both places. The MC reference is well understood by the client so
he knows the registry and the registrar have some data at the same time, and
… go get it in both places.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz: The protocol supports
that
you can really combine data from different repositories.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">P. Stahura: What if data is
different?
For example, if the registry says this is the registrant name, and by the
way,
you could get this other information at the registrar. Then the registrar.
Then
the registrar says this is the name and it's different. Then the client has
to reconcile that somehow. Which one does it use?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton That's a matter of how
it wishes to present the data. In the client software I have, I have what's
called a tree widget or tree control which is used for doing the
representation.
You can see that here is the date the registry has. Underneath that, you see
what the registrar has. So the user can bring up both pieces of data, put
them
side by side and see they're different. Specifically, the client could
actually
be programmed to flag that and start blinking in big red letters that they
differ
or something. But that's a function of how the client sees the
data.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle The important thing to
keep in mind is IRIS is making sure it keeps track not only of data for this
given record but also … key element of what it is aware of.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">P. StahuraMy second question is
related
to query limit. Someone said based on the certificate or authentication of
the
user, that user not only might not be able to see certain information but
might
be limited to a certain number of queries per day. Is that right?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton Yes. It's really a
matter
of policy.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">P. So my question is, for example,
I could be wrong, but can a user type in joe@xxxxxxxxxxx as an e-mail address
and query the system to say return domain name whois information for any
domain
name with that e-mail address in one query?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: I believe so. You're
asking
if the user can submit query, saying I want all the main names with a certain
e-mail address and they'll get all the domain names? Or are you asking if the
server can limit how many domains they get back?</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">P. Stahura: If there was no limit,
they'd get all the Whoisinformation for all the domain names at hotmail,
let's
say.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. Newton: Not necessarily. The
server
can limit the number of answers it gives back. So even though the answer
could
be 1,000 domains, the policy can be that you can only see 100 of
them.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinator No further questions
at this time.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: I'll take this
opportunity
to thank our presenters, Andrew Newton, Leslie Daigle and Marcos. Thanks
again
for your presentation. They've been sent to the task force list, which is a
publicly accessible list. If there is anyone who can't access it, feel free
to send this gnso.secretariat an e-mail to get a copy of the presentation.
I'm
sure we'll have a number of follow up questions for you guys, possibly a
follow
up call in the future. Thanks a lot.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">L. Daigle: I'd like to say thank
you, too. I appreciate the opportunity to speak about this. I'd like to end
on the point that we're only trying to build technology that will suit the
needs
that you're defining. To the extent you can keep us aware of the need and
progress
in your deliberations, it will help our process in meeting our goal. So
thanks
a lot.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">M. Sanz: It was my pleasure, as
well,
to have somebody who wants to hear about this.</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">J. Neuman: Thanks for joining the
call. <br>
<br>
The next task force call <br>
<b>Next Tuesday 18 January 2005 at 11:00 EST</b></font></p>
<p> </p>
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