[council] RE: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC

["Neuman, Jeff" <Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx>]

So, just to clarify for the team, have the words “Red Crystal” and “Red Lion 
and Sun” been protected in and of themselves in all of the languages that have 
been submitted by the Red Cross.

Jeffrey J. Neuman
Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs

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From: Hughes, Debra Y. [mailto:Debra.Hughes@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:51 AM
To: Neuman, Jeff; Zahid Jamil; Shatan, Gregory S.
Cc: Winterfeldt, Brian; J. Scott Evans; Konstantinos Komaitis; Gomes, Chuck; 
Wolfgang Kleinwächter; <gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx>; <council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC

All,

We are preparing a formal comment supporting the work of the Drafting team; 
however, we wanted to quickly respond that RCRC is not seeking to add 
protection for symbols/designs in the Guidebook - but the names associated with 
those emblems/symbols and the other names associated with the Movement and its 
National Societies.

Debbie


Debra Y. Hughes
Senior Counsel

American Red Cross
2025 E Street, NW
Washington, D.C. 20006
202.303.5356 (p)
202.303.0143 (f)
Debra.Hughes@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:Debra.Hughes@xxxxxxxxxxxx>

From: owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx> 
[mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Neuman, Jeff
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 1:29 PM
To: Zahid Jamil; Shatan, Gregory S.
Cc: Winterfeldt, Brian; J. Scott Evans; Konstantinos Komaitis; Gomes, Chuck; 
Wolfgang Kleinwächter; 
<gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx>>; 
<council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: RE: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC

This does need to be considered.  The Guidebook currently provides protections 
only for word marks and not for symbols, emblems or designs.  To the extent 
that these are just designs, emblems, logos, etc., then in order to establish 
uniformity with the other sections of the Guidebook, we may not want to extend 
protections beyond the word marks.  To do otherwise at this point may involve a 
policy decision we are not charged with making.

Jeffrey J. Neuman
Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs

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From: Zahid Jamil [mailto:zahid@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:26 AM
To: Shatan, Gregory S.
Cc: Winterfeldt, Brian; J. Scott Evans; Neuman, Jeff; Konstantinos Komaitis; 
Gomes, Chuck; Wolfgang Kleinwächter; 
<gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx>>; 
<council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: Re: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC

many thanks.  am going over this.  very helpful.


Best regards,

Zahid Jamil
Barrister-at-law
Jamil & Jamil
Barristers-at-law
219-221 Central Hotel Annexe
Merewether Road, Karachi. Pakistan
Cell: +923008238230
Tel: +92 21 5680760 / 5685276 / 5655025
Fax: +92 21 5655026
www.jamilandjamil.com<http://www.jamilandjamil.com>

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Sent from my iPad

On 11 Mar 2012, at 11:12, "Shatan, Gregory S." 
<GShatan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:GShatan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:

I'm sure  the RCRC representatives in the group will answer.  In the meantime, 
this might be helpful with regard to the Red Crystal (from 
http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/misc/emblem-history.htm):

2005

In December 2005 during the Diplomatic Conference in Geneva, the States adopted 
Protocol III additional to the Geneva Conventions, creating an additional 
emblem alongside the red cross and red crescent. The new emblem - known as the 
red crystal - resolves several issues that the Movement has faced over the 
years, including:

the possibility for countries unwilling to adopt the red cross or the red 
crescent to join the Movement as full members by using the red crystal;

the possibility of using the red cross and the red crescent together.

2006

In June 2006, an International Conference of the Red Cross and Red Crescent met 
in Geneva to amend the statutes of the Movement to take into account the 
creation of the new emblem.

2007

On 14 January 2007, the Third Additional Protocol to the 1949 Geneva 
Conventions entered into force (six months after the two first countries 
ratified it). This completes the process of establishing an additional emblem 
for use by Governments and the International Red Cross and Red Crescent 
Movement.

Also, it is my understanding that the Red Lion and Sun is a recognized symbol 
of the RCRC societies in the Geneva Convention and that this was reaffirmed in 
the 2005 Protocol III mentioned above.

Greg Shatan

Gregory S. Shatan
Deputy Chair| Tech Transactions Group
IP | Technology | Media
ReedSmithLLP
The business of relationships
599 Lexington Avenue
New York, NY 10022
212.549.0275 | Phone
917.816.6428 | Mobile
212.521.5450 | Fax
gshatan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:gshatan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
www.reedsmith.com<http://www.reedsmith.com>

________________________________
m: Zahid Jamil [mailto:zahid@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 12:54 PM
To: Shatan, Gregory S.
Cc: Winterfeldt, Brian; J. Scott Evans; Neuman, Jeff; Konstantinos Komaitis; 
Gomes, Chuck; Wolfgang Kleinwächter; 
<gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx>>; 
<council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: Re: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC
Hi everyone just wanted to repeat the qs I asked at the council yesterday 
regarding Red Cross extensions that include Red Crystal and Red Lion and Sun 
and phrases wrt these terms.  Wanted see if I could more info on that...basis 
and protections of the phrases etc.


Best regards,

Zahid Jamil
Barrister-at-law
Jamil & Jamil
Barristers-at-law
219-221 Central Hotel Annexe
Merewether Road, Karachi. Pakistan
Cell: +923008238230
Tel: +92 21 5680760 / 5685276 / 5655025
Fax: +92 21 5655026
www.jamilandjamil.com<http://www.jamilandjamil.com>

Notice / Disclaimer
This message contains confidential information and its contents are being 
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Jamil is prohibited.

Sent from my iPad

On 11 Mar 2012, at 10:50, "Shatan, Gregory S." 
<GShatan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:GShatan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
The fact that the GAC may not have full consensus should not be surprising.  It 
would probably be more surprising if they did -- on this or any other issue.

As for the OECD, I think their letter was based largely on a set of false 
premises and a lack of understanding of the rationale for setting the IOC and 
RCRC apart.  I'm sure this was not intentional, but it does discount the 
substance of their concerns.

In a sense, I am sympathetic with their desire to bootstrap IGOs onto the 
proposed protection for the IOC/RCRC.  We know that they would like similar 
protections.  It's not surprising that they would try to make an argument that 
they are just like or better than the IOC/RCRC.  The fact that they could not 
come up with a high quality argument is a sign that it will not be so easy to 
argue convincingly that IGO's are the same as the IOC/RCRC and thus entitled to 
the same protection.  "Slippery slope" arguments like those made below only 
work when distinctions are difficult to draw between those included and those 
excluded.  Where there are clear distinctions, as there are here, a slippery 
slope argument really doesn't hold water, and can even tend to be a "scare 
tactic."  For example, one of the potential Republican nominees for US 
President, Rick Santorum, has used such specious slippery slope arguments in 
attempts to support his opposition to gay sex and marriage:

"[I have] a problem with homosexual acts, as I would with what I would consider 
to be acts outside of traditional heterosexual relationships . . . if the 
Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual [gay] sex within your 
home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you 
have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery." -- Rick Santorum on 
gay sex, AP interview

"In every society, the definition of marriage has not ever to my knowledge 
included homosexuality. That's not to pick on homosexuality. It's not, you 
know, man on child, man on dog, or whatever the case may be. It is one thing. 
And when you destroy that you have a dramatic impact on the quality." -- Rick 
Santorum, AP interview
Thus, I would tend to discard the slippery slope argument that if IOC and RCRC 
opens the door to every other group that would like the same protections, and 
that the only way to deal with future petitioners is to bar the door to the IOC 
and RCRC.

Thank you.

Greg Shatan


________________________________
From: Winterfeldt, Brian [mailto:bwinterfeldt@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:55 AM
To: 'J. Scott Evans'; Neuman, Jeff
Cc: Konstantinos Komaitis; Gomes, Chuck; Wolfgang Kleinwächter; Shatan, Gregory 
S.; gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx>; 
council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC
Dear All,

I support Jeff as well.  I think the path forward should not change unless 
there is a different directive given by the GAC.

Best regards,

Brian

Brian J. Winterfeldt, Esq.
Steptoe & Johnson LLP




-----Original Message-----
From: owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx> 
[mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of J. Scott Evans
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:34 AM
To: Neuman, Jeff
Cc: Konstantinos Komaitis; Gomes, Chuck; Wolfgang Kleinwächter; Gregory Shatan; 
gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx>; 
council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC


Dear All,

I completely agree with Jeff.   Our job at this point is to stat the course.  
The issues raised by OECD are for the GAC to debate and come to consensus and, 
even then, we could conclude that NGO protection is unwarranted.

J. Scott

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 11, 2012, at 3:06 PM, "Neuman, Jeff" 
<Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:

>
> Konstantinos,
>
> The correspondence yesterday was the same correspondence we have had for 
> months.  Lets not jump to any conclusions because of the statements of a VERY 
> small minority of GAC members.  Remember, the GAC cannot change course 
> without a consensus of the GAC.  If the Chair, the US, the EU and others 
> object to changing course within the GAC, then the GAC cannot by its very 
> definition of consensus change course.
>
> Lets not make more of this issue than it is at this point.  Plus, remember, 
> if the GAC were to change course, we could always say no.  And yes, there is 
> a rationale to treat the IOC and Red Cross differently than the other OECD 
> organizations (according to the GAC).  The GAC letter explained that and it 
> was reiterated by Greg in his insightful e-mail.
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Jeffrey J. Neuman
> Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail message is intended only for the use 
> of the recipient(s) named above and may contain confidential and/or 
> privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient you have 
> received this e-mail message in error and any review, dissemination, 
> distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have 
> received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and delete 
> the original message.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Konstantinos Komaitis [mailto:k.komaitis@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:27 AM
> To: Gomes, Chuck; Neuman, Jeff; Wolfgang Kleinwächter; Gregory Shatan; 
> gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx>; 
> 'council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>'
> Subject: Re: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am speaking without being present in yesterday's meeting so I can only 
> comment on what I am reading from the email thread. Although I do appreciate 
> the argument that the official GAC position has not changed (meaning there is 
> not a follow-up 'official' letter from Heather asking for a change of course) 
> the fact that we heard various GAC members expressing reservations and the 
> potential implications of such protections should certainly be taken on 
> board. This is significant as it manifests that the GAC might not be speaking 
> as one voice in this issue; at the very minimum, these are new considerations 
> that the DT should take on board.
>
> At the same time, we certainly cannot underestimate the letter that came from 
> the OECD. What appeared to be just a possibility, it now appears that it is 
> very likely that once the protections for these two orgs are set, more will 
> come and use it as a precedent to get the same amount of protection. and, one 
> could easily argue that there is potentially a more valid claim for these 
> orgs to have their names protected than the IOC or the Red Cross. Are we 
> really suggesting here that the work of the IOC, for instance, is more 
> important or valuable than that of UNESCO or WIPO?
>
> I am quite surprised with the insistence to approach this issue the same way 
> we have been approaching it, even in light of these new developments, which I 
> believe are significant.
>
> Thanks
>
> Konstantinos
>
> From: Chuck Gomes 
> <cgomes@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:cgomes@xxxxxxxxxxxx><mailto:cgomes@xxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 13:54:34 +0000
> To: Jeff Neuman 
> <Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx><mailto:Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx>>,
>  Wolfgang Kleinwächter 
> <wolfgang.kleinwaechter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx><mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>,
>  Gregory Shatan 
> <GShatan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:GShatan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx><mailto:GShatan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>,
>  
> "gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx><mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx>"
>  
> <gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx><mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx>>,
>  
> "'council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx><mailto:'council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>'"
>  
> <council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx><mailto:council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> Subject: RE: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC
>
>
> It seems to me that we would need another letter from Heather requesting a 
> change of direction before we would consider changing course.  We have based 
> our work from the letter sent us stating the GAC request so until she as 
> chair states that the GAC has changed their request, we should only rely on 
> the official request we have.  On a side note, I would be very bothered if 
> the GAC changed their request significantly after we had gone to all the 
> effort we have to be responsive to their request and would like to think they 
> wouldn't do that.
>
> Chuck
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 
> owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx><mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx>
>  [mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc- 
> dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:dt@xxxxxxxxx><mailto:dt@xxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Neuman, 
> Jeff
> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:36 AM
> To: '"Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"'; 'Shatan, Gregory S.'; 'gnso-iocrc- 
> dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:dt@xxxxxxxxx><mailto:dt@xxxxxxxxx>'; 
> 'council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx><mailto:'council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>'
> Subject: RE: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC I do not think that this 
> is a wise way forward.  We cannot allow what a very few members of the GAC 
> say during an open meeting to detract from our overall position and 
> recommendations.  I got a full briefing on the GAC discussion yesterday and 
> do not believe we need to change course.
> We should only change our course if during today's discussion between the GAC 
> and GNSO necessitate the need to do so.  It is really not fair for us to base 
> our actions on what a very small minority of the GAC members state.  It would 
> be like another group changing their course on what only a few few Councilors 
> state.  GAC members, like Councilors, are diverse.  Simply because a small 
> percentage of Councilors feel one way and express their views, that may not 
> impact the view of the COuncil as a whole.
> Sent with Good (www.good.com<http://www.good.com>)
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"
> [mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 05:28 AM Eastern Standard Time
> To: Shatan, Gregory S.; Neuman, Jeff; 
> gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx><mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx>;
> council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx><mailto:council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: AW: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC
> Greogry:
> I hope that the OECD and other intergovernmental organizations can understand 
> the accurate picture of the "criteria" we considered and reconsider the 
> statements below.  While we should welcome their input, a discussion that is 
> based on a mischaracterization is only going to be a dead end.
> Wolfgang:
> This is the point. We "hope" that the OECD and other IGOs will understand. 
> What happens if they don`t? In yesterdays GAC meeting (I was there) it became 
> clear that there is no consensus among the GAC members. While Susan and Marc 
> defended the position they gave us in the joint meeting, other GAC members 
> introduced a broader view and disagreed partly with the US and the UK. The 
> European Commission  was outspoken in calling similar rights for IGOs. I 
> respect when Susan and Marc argue, our governments are members of those 
> organisations and the UK and the US government will not support any attempt 
> by an IGO to call for specific rights to have the name protected in all 
> variations (as the "four" red organisations have done this now with 100+ 
> words and combination of words) But what will happen if the UK and the US do 
> not have a majority in this IGO? My warning yesterday was that I see a risk 
> that we are pulled into an endless debate over who is in a "unique position" 
> and gets sp!
ec!
>  ial rights and who is not. Chuck yesterday already recognized that there 
> "could" be also a third organisaiton similar to the IOC and IRC.
> And what happens if there "could" be first five organisations arguing that 
> they are "unique" and than 50?
> To avoid this and to react in a constructive way to the GAC/Board letters my 
> proposal is to have very general language to strengthen the protection of 
> names of such organisations (as IOC and IGOs) but not to mention any single 
> organisation by name. BTW, the existing mechanisms for the protection of 
> those names which are already in the guidebook (as early warning and others), 
> are in my eyes sufficient enough to prevent any misuse by third parties. I do 
> not believe that a cybersquatter will risk 200.000.00 USD to start a battle 
> with the IOC or the IRC etc. And if the International Oceanographic 
> Commission of UNESCO would go for .ioc they would probably consult in advance 
> with the Olympic Committee (the other IOC is an intergovernmental treaty 
> organisation). So it seems to me that we are in a rather theoretical debate. 
> Lets be pragmatic and say, this is what we do for the first phase. We will 
> review this in the light of experiences with the first phase and will come 
> back with!
  a!
>  dditional language (if the existing dispute resolution mechnisms - which has 
> not yet been tested - demonstrate too much weaknesses). And BTW this is only 
> for the Top Level. The second level is a different issue and we will come 
> back to the second level (where is no urgency) later.
> To be consistent with our position so far we can argue that yesterdays 
> discussion within the GAC has triggered a debate within the GNSO to rethink 
> its approach. We have in the previous months trusted UK and US and followed 
> the GAC letter but we learned yesterday that there is no real consensus among 
> the GAC members themselves which affects obviously also our approach. And we 
> should not underestimate the OECD argument.
> And even more if you go to the letter Steve Crocker has written to the
> 49 member states of the African Union and read the arguments of Steve, why he 
> rejects a special proteciton of "africa" in its variations, than we should 
> try to be also consistent with positions taken by the chair of the board. As 
> an African Union member state  I would raise the issue why a non-governmental 
> Committee gets special rights and why ICANN rejects this to the lagrest 
> intergovenrmental body in Africa? Again whe should avoid to become be pulled 
> into such an endless chain of controver!
>  sial discussions.
> Thank you.
> Wolfgang
>
>
>
>




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